Meeting on noise generates static : News-Record.com : Greensboro & the Triad's most trusted source for local news and analysis

Editor’s note: An earlier version of this story incorrectly quoted Councilman Zack Matheny. Audio of the meeting indicates that he said: “We've got some people that live downtown that want to sleep.”

GREENSBORO — There’s no sign of a compromise.

The conflict between city officials and downtown business owners over noise limits became more defined in a meeting Thursday.

One proposal suggests banning commercial outdoor amplified noise after 11 p.m. Bar and club owners disapprove.

“We've got some people that live downtown that want to sleep,” City Councilman Zack Matheny said to the crowd of about 30. “We got some business owners that have been downtown and helped the revitalization. Can we not all get along? Can we not all figure it out?”

Greensboro’s present law prohibits “unreasonably loud noise” — noise above 65 decibels between 10 p.m. and 7 a.m. in areas with residential property.

Police Chief Ken Miller said noise violations aren’t easy for police to enforce under this ordinance.

Most violators turn down the volume when the police approach, and meters pick up ambient or consolidated noise from several spots, he said.

Miller presented a second ordinance proposal, which would:

Set a maximum limit on amplified noise outdoors at 45 decibels.
Apply to any noise outside the building.
Be in effect from 11 p.m. to 7 a.m.

The proposal also requires that officers take measurements close to the source of the noise, rather than the place where the complainant called, as the law requires, Miller said.

Some business owners bemoaned the decibel decrease.

Miller said the proposal is not anti-club. Everyone wants an active downtown.

“There are cities that are thriving, and they have lower noise,” Miller said.

Some business owners at the meeting said a very small group of residents are complaining about noise levels.

Green Bean coffeehouse owner Katie Southard said people choose to live in the center city and are aware of the clubs and restaurants open late. Those sensitive to the noise should move away like she did, she said.

“I propose keeping the Central Business District different from the rest of the city,” she said.

She suggested allowing up to 75 decibels in downtown until 2 a.m., when most clubs close.

The meeting showed much confusion about decibel levels. Is 45 decibels the noise level of a normal conversation or something else?

Miller said police are setting up a meeting with council members to allow them to go downtown and experience noise readings.

Ed Wolverton, president and CEO of Downtown Greensboro Inc., said he soon will set up decibel readings for business owners in conjunction with Center City Park.

Richard Harlow, a young professional, said the changes to the noise ordinance sound like “a job-killing plan.”

“If you enforce the noise ordinance that kills the clubs at 11, me and my friends will take our money elsewhere,” he said.

Simonne McClinton, owner of M’Coul’s , said a city is defined by its downtown.

“I would hate to see us do something shortsighted and hinder the progress that many of us put our lives into,” she said.

Another ordinance that produced similar heated debate over its effect on downtown quietly went away recently.

The City Council didn’t renew a curfew banning the under-18 crowd from hanging out unsupervised downtown after 11 p.m., a rule meant to protect teenagers from criminal activity and reduce crowds after hours.

In 2011, officers charged three people with being a juvenile under 18 downtown in a public place after hours, according to Greensboro police. The teens were being investigated for other crimes when officers realized they were underage, police said.

Contact Dioni L. Wise at 373-7090 or dioni.wise@news-record.com

brian444

February 17, 2012 - 3:58 am EST

Another iteration of the perpetual drama of living in Greensboro: (1) people choose to live in the proximity of airport/landfill/downtown, (2) decide that they don't like the realities of their chosen place of habitation, and (3) seek to have the offending realities eliminated by the city council.

Abner Doon

February 17, 2012 - 10:02 am EST

So if a business drops $300,000 on a downtown business,
and Zach or whoever doesn't like them,
the powers that be can "arrange" for said business to cease to be,
perhaps creating an opportunity for one of Zach's friends, contributors,
or anyone with enough cash to buy off the politicians
to buy into someone else's investment at half off,
as long as they continue to pay tribute?

February 17, 2012 - 3:53 pm EST

http://www.news-record.com/blog/2012/02/17/entry/noise_ordinance_more_fi...

http://edcone.typepad.com/wordup/2012/02/some-noise-ordinance.html

http://fecundstench.wordpress.com/2012/02/17/downtown-noise-ordinance-ba...

http://triad.johnlocke.org/blog/?p=15271

http://abnersinquisition.blogspot.com/2012/02/should-robbie-perkins-recu...

http://triadwatch.blogspot.com/2012/02/robbie-perkins-and-roy-carroll-te...

http://triadwatch.blogspot.com/2012/02/heard-noise-complaint-from-someon...

123mlynn

February 17, 2012 - 6:28 am EST

"We got some key people that live downtown that want to sleep,” City Councilman Zack Matheny said.

Who are "key" people? Rich people? Politicians? Movers-and-shakers? I guess if no "key" people lived downtown – you know, regular people, poor people, John Doe – then the noise situation would not matter. I'm just saying...

Interested

February 17, 2012 - 7:00 am EST

I picked up on that as well. It's the reason I came to the comment page. The councilman definitely showed his hand.

aqieof

February 17, 2012 - 8:04 am EST

and the key people are (is).........Roy Carroll....The mayor is simply tired of hearing him complain...
So on one hand, he gets our tax money to build himself a shrine touting how great he is for our community' s economic development and growth..and then he wants to eliminate hundreds of jobs because he can hear noise outside detracting from the gigantic tv he has sitting on his patio ...
let s see how long it will take for this comment to be removed...5.4...3..2

Ozymandias

February 17, 2012 - 8:05 am EST

The SBOE records say one ROBERT VIRGINIUS PERKINS III lives at 201 N. Elm. (That's the "luxurious high rise" [a realtor's words- not mine] refurbed by that dude some councilman texted during council meetings.

Now- I don't seriously think that has anything to do with this issue or that Mr. "One Percent" was who Zack was referring to. But it is amusing, ain't it?

February 17, 2012 - 9:42 am EST

A few campaign contibutors.

Roy owns Center Pointe.

Robbie is the Realtor for Center Pointe.

Robbie suddenly lives in Center Pointe.

Roy and Robbie want to sell condos.

Most of the apartment dwellers move to downtown for the nightlife.

Apparently Robbie and Roy figured out
that many who want to buy condos
want quiet from the indigenous population downtown.

Robbie and Roy own Greensboro.

If they didn't like the neighborhood,
they shouldn't have moved there.

Roy got millions in tax breaks for Center Pointe,
took the top two floors for himself,
and now wants to put everyone else out of business?

LINDA SHAW 03/23/10 Roy Carroll II
ZACK MATHENY 10/23/09 Roy Carroll II
DIANE BELLAMY-SMALL 10/16/2007 Roy E and Vanessa Y Carroll
Kirk Perkins 5/2/2008 Roy E and Vanessa Y Carroll
Paul Gibson 5/2/2008 Roy E and Vanessa Y Carroll
ROBBIE PERKINS 10/16/2007 Roy E and Vanessa Y Carroll
SANDRA ANDERSON GROAT 10/16/2007 Roy E and Vanessa Y Carroll
TRUDY WADE 10/16/2007 Roy E and Vanessa Y Carroll
YVONNE JOHNSON 10/16/2007 Roy E and Vanessa Y Carroll
ZACK MATHENY 10/16/2007 Roy E and Vanessa Y Carroll
JIM KEE 10/27/09 Roy E. Carroll
ROBBIE PERKINS 10/13/09 Roy E. Carroll II
TRUDY WADE 10/23/09 Roy E. Carroll II

February 17, 2012 - 11:12 am EST

forgot about Al Leonard's contributions.

Roy is on the board of the Greensboro Partnership.

Al is on the board of Downtown Greensboro Inc.

I beleive both were for the 1/4 cent reggressive tax increase
that hits poor people the hardest.

ROBBIE PERKINS 10/22/07 Alvin C. Leonard Carroll Cos.
JIM KEE 10/27/09 Alvin C. Leonard Jr. Carroll Companies
ROBBIE PERKINS 10/18/09 Alvin C. Leonard Jr. Alaris Homes
TRUDY WADE 10/23/09 Alvin C. Leonard Jr. Carroll Companies
ZACK MATHENY 10/23/09 Alvin Leonard Carroll Companies
ZACK MATHENY 11/07/07 Alvin Leonard Carroll Companies

If you multiply the known contributions by familiar names
by those bundled at the campaign events of others just like them,
and there you have an Oligarchy that runs Greensboro.

A good chunk of the boards of the Greensboro Partnership
Downtown Greensboro, Piedmont Triad Partnership and TREBIC.

February 17, 2012 - 12:09 pm EST

Perhaps we should get "key person" badges or t-shirts made so these people can be easily identified.

Traveler

February 17, 2012 - 12:46 pm EST

My understanding is the complaint is mostly from Roy Carroll.

His condo complex is around 3/4 empty.

Nuf said.

DivineMindPower

February 17, 2012 - 7:10 am EST

Progress in Greensboro will never happen. Two steps forward 3 steps back. Greensboro is becoming a sad place to live.

February 17, 2012 - 10:33 am EST

Anyone want to frequent a behavior regulated zone
where citizens can be ticketed or arrested
for something someone like Nurse Crotchet may think is uncouth?
.
.
.
"...Matheny’s advocacy for a teen curfew downtown
was ill-conceived and unfair."

Greensboro News & Record Editorial Board
.
.
.
"Rent Seeking"

"...rent-seeking is an attempt to obtain economic rent
by manipulating the social or political environment
rather than by creating new wealth.

...spending money on political lobbying
in order to be given a share of wealth that has already been created.

Many current studies of rent-seeking focus on efforts
to capture various monopoly privileges
stemming from government regulation of free enterprise competition.

...a more common example of rent-seeking is political lobbying
to receive a government transfer payment,
or to impose burdensome regulations on one's competitors
in order to increase one's market share.

...such behaviors may result in substantial social losses."

Wiki
.
.
.
"Regarding curfews,
Matheny said the issue came out of feedback
from downtown "stakeholders".

Roy Carroll, whose Center Point project sits at the heart of downtown,
said he was pleased with what he heard...adding action was needed."
.
Ryan Seals
Greensboro News & Record
.
.
.
"When buying and selling are controlled by legislation
the first thing to be bought and sold are legislators"

P J O'Rourke
.
.
.
Motion to approve ordinance amendment
to prohibit loitering within 50 feet of an establishment that serves alcohol:

For: Vaughan, Perkins, Kee, Matheny, and Wade
.
.
.
“We need action right away,”
Roy Carroll told Greensboro City Council members...

“Downtown has come too far and too much is at stake.

We must take bold and decisive steps
to ensure that all of our citizens have a safe environment
wherever they are not matter what time of day it is.”

Matheny spearheaded the initiative...

The votes appear to confirm that Greensboro is a rentier regime,
with downtown property owners and their supporters
prevailing over other constituencies."

Jordan Green, Yes Weekly

Mick

February 17, 2012 - 7:20 am EST

The "key people" need to get over it. They moved within earshot of "the problem". Sorry. Not my or "the problem's" problem.

Zach, really really poor choice of words. Dumb thing to say.

February 17, 2012 - 9:51 am EST

On June 11, 2007,
Zack Matheny voted for a rezoning for Carroll Capital Investments, LLC,
represented by Robbie Perkins, for Roy Carroll.

Zack received $1,000 from Mr. Carroll's PAC on 10/30/07.

Mr. Carroll also gave $1,000 checks to Robbie, etc...,
as he garnered about $4 million in tax breaks for Center Point.

Guitarman

February 17, 2012 - 7:22 am EST

"Key people"? Read rich, influential people? Would the council be so concerned if complaints came from poorer, less influential people? I think not. This elitism is a perpetual problem in Greensboro, and gives us a black eye in the rest of the state. Look, Greensboro is blessed with a vibrant, thriving, exciting downtown culture. A culture that is creating jobs, spending and tax revenue as well as bringing people downtown after 5:00PM. Most other cities would consider that a good thing. Do you remember how dead, uninviting and unproductive downtown Greensboro was a few years ago? Is that what we want? The business owners who have taken the risk, invested their money, worked so hard and paid their fees and taxes deserve to reap the rewards of their investment and labor. It is a business district, not a residential district. Those who chose to live in a business district knew that when they moved there. I believe the rule of law is that if you move to an existing condition or nuisance, you cannot later complain about it. Let the business owners have 75 decibels until 2:00AM. Those who don't like it can move into a conventional RESIDENTIAL setting where there are no bars, theaters and clubs or invest in earplugs.

February 17, 2012 - 10:37 am EST

"I find it hard to believe that very many businesses downtown
– which it is the businesses that told me to create the curfew in the first place...

We need to look at partnering with somebody.

...it’s [local developer] Roy Carroll — I don’t care who it is.

Roy, fortunately or unfortunately for him, has a bunch of land.

And he can’t do what he wanted to do,
so maybe we can partner with him.

...Let’s clean ’em up and make it more aesthetically pleasing
and do that in conjunction with getting more heads in beds."

Zack Matheny
.
.
.
What does "partner" mean?

Does partner mean taking from the many
to give to the few?

vlmwest

February 17, 2012 - 7:54 am EST

You can't choose to live downtown then complain about the noise. The noise was there before you got there, people. I'm so tired of people thinking that they are entitled! Get over it. You knew what you were getting into when you moved downtown!

February 17, 2012 - 9:58 am EST

"Councilman Zack Matheny announced several plans
...designed to give police effective tools to maintain order downtown

“It’s vital to the residents of Greensboro
that we take the necessary and serious steps
to improve the downtown environment
so that everyone can enjoy themselves in a safe atmosphere,” Matheny said.

“These measures promote not only public safety,
but will hold downtown businesses accountable
for the actions of their visitors.”

Among the changes...:

Zero tolerance for quality of life infractions that occur in downtown;
that includes cracking down on loitering, panhandling
and other disruptive behavior.

Matheny wants to create a new entertainment license for all nightclubs
with a capacity more than 100 that includes:

Certification and training of all club security personnel...

The entertainment license is subject to revocation
for violation of city ordinances.

Matheny envisions that many of the ordinances will be passed ...and go into effect"

Ryan Seals

r u serious

When I bought my home, airport noise wasn't a problem. Now that the city has rezoned the area, allowing planes to fly overhead, its a problem. Can't blame location choices on everyone all the time. City managers help make those changes for you. Please, none of the "progress" lectures. I've heard them. Maybe if they rezone your area to build a mall, add new lanes in your neighborhood, perhaps you will better understand.

zalo731

February 17, 2012 - 9:12 am EST

The City does not direct where planes fly over, that would be the responsiblity of the Federal Aviation Administration. Now the City or County probably screwed up by approving re-zonings for dense housing developments in proximity of the airport, which has been around since the 1930's or 40's.

linsdaymegan

February 17, 2012 - 9:21 am EST

Are YOU serious? Your comment isn't even relevant to this conversation. The only thing that has changed in the downtown area is that these so-called "key people" have moved in and decided they don't like how things are, so they're pushing for this new ordinance. I live downtown and I hear the "noise," but I knew that would be part of it so it doesn't bother me. If you're going to live downtown, you must understand that you're going to hear people, cars, music during business hours (up to 2am). I understand a noise ordinance being enforced after 2am, but this new ordinance would unfairly penalize small business owners as patrons will begin taking their money elsewhere.

February 17, 2012 - 5:09 pm EST

First of all, the airport conversation was relevant to the first comment, not the article. Second, the city did mess up. Others are directly impacted by the decisions made at the city level sometimes with disregard to the people it most impacts. Thats it. I got more important things to do than write a story about all this. Thank you for reading my post though. Shows you had some interest in what I had to say.

citywatcher

February 17, 2012 - 8:15 am EST

None of this was brought up until Winston-Salem started talking about it.

axelskater

February 17, 2012 - 8:18 am EST

Look back at Ryan Shell - a candidate who ran for City Council in 2007. He brought up downtown noise because club owners would turn the music down when the police came and crank it back up when they left. This probelm has been occurring for a while - but as downtown becomes more densely packed it had become even more prominent.

February 17, 2012 - 9:59 am EST

Should axelskater disclose she lives in Center Point with Robbie and Roy?

February 17, 2012 - 8:16 am EST

Actually there are a lot of regular, hard working, everyday people living downtown who have been trying to compromise on this for several years and simply asking the outdoor venues to turn it down - even a little - especially on Weekday nights. There are doctors, widows, business people, students - undergraduate & law students - and regular office workers who have tried repeatedly to work with bar owners - to no avail.

As for dates - renovations (although not necessarily occupation of) on several downtown residences began contemporaneously and in some cases before outdoor venues were added.

Bar owners in Charlotte and Raleigh screamed and yelled that their downtown life would be killled by a similar ordinance, but an ordinance was implemented. In researching this situation - so far not a single bar has closed due to the ordinance being implemented. Outdoor music in Charlotte is still thriving. Greensboro's downtown will also continue to thrive. This ordinance will not even effect indoor venues. Outdoor bar venues will simply have to turn down the volume a little late at night as they had to in Raleigh and Charlotte (as well as New York City, whose recent ordinance is more strict than Raleigh; Austin, TX - the "outdoor music capital of the world; and even Ft Lauderdale - not exactly quiet cities. Look it up - it's all there) Many cities with nightlife have dealt with this recently and Greensboro is no different. Most downtown residents understand and happily live with a higher level of noise, traffic and more - and don't mind at all. They simply ask bar owners to keep outdoor venues down to a dull roar late at night so all can coexist together.

By the way - most "young professionals" do not use phrases like "me and my friends will take our money elsewhere".....

beedev

February 17, 2012 - 10:12 am EST

axelskater was making some near-valid points and then had to negate it all by turning pompous right at the end.

February 17, 2012 - 10:15 am EST

What phrases do they use?

ReaderB

February 17, 2012 - 8:58 am EST

"Key People" - says it all. They're not even ashamed of this sort of pandering to the rich anymore. Important to remember which came first here. These people built and moved in AFTER the clubs and existing noise ordinance was in place. They failed to do their due diligence and now want to take no personal responsibility and instead have the rules changed. Reminds me of the developers and residents who built along the I-40 Loop, didn't like the noise and managed to have the interstate re-routed back through "Death Valley" where the safety issues were one of the main arguments for building the loop in the first place. Logic, common sense and fairness do not apply when there's money to spread around.

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