ACLU 'out of touch' on prayer complaint, N.C. House leaders say : News-Record.com : Greensboro & the Triad's most trusted source for local news and analysis

RALEIGH, N.C. (AP) — Republican leaders in the state House of Representatives said Friday they're reviewing a complaint by a civil liberties group about prayers in the General Assembly, but that they believe the group is out of touch with the concerns of North Carolina residents.

House Speaker Thom Tillis and Majority Leader Paul Stam both said they'll consider the concerns raised in the letter sent Thursday by the state chapter of the American Civil Liberties Union, but neither lawmaker thinks there's much to the group's contention that prayers at sessions of the legislature violate the First Amendment.

"The ACLU has an affinity for pushing a radical, far-left agenda that is out of touch with most North Carolinians," Tillis said in a statement. "The same Constitution that prohibits government-sponsored religion also protects the right of individuals to exercise their faith as they so choose."

The group's letter to Attorney General Roy Cooper cited the decision last month by the U.S. Supreme Court not to hear an appeal of a case in which a lower federal court ruled that prayers endorsing a specific religion can't be offered at meetings of the Forsyth County Board of Commissioners.

Such sectarian prayers, almost always Christian, are common during sessions of both the House and Senate, according to complaints received by the ACLU. The Senate has a chaplain that offers invocations, while Tillis has invited individual lawmakers to lead prayers before sessions.

"As private individuals, members of the General Assembly are free to pray on their own in whatever way they choose," said Katy Parker, legal director of the state ACLU chapter, in response to the statements by Tillis and Stam.

"But when a prayer is used in a government chamber to open the legislature representing North Carolinians of all faiths and beliefs, the law clearly states that the prayer cannot be specific to one religion, whether offered by a legislator or by an invited prayer-giver," she said.

Stam said he doesn't think the prayers in the House are at all the same as the matter in the Forsyth County court case.

"Members volunteer to pray and do so at their own free will, and their prayers are not directed or censored by any government official," he said.

A spokeswoman for Cooper's office, which represents the state in legal matters, said the attorney general will make lawmakers aware of the ACLU's concerns. Calls to Senate leaders weren't immediately returned Friday.

nemo0037

February 3, 2012 - 3:38 pm EST

Imagine that! Lawmakers who don't bother to read or understand the rulings of the Supreme Court! This has been settled law for the whole nation for almost 30 years, yet they insist on ignoring it. Sad.

kenpofan

February 3, 2012 - 3:50 pm EST

The Establishment of a state religion is a far cry from a open prayer IMHO.

Panacea

February 3, 2012 - 5:03 pm EST

That's because you are part of the majority. Ask a Jew what it's like to have to listen to Christianity shoved down their throats.

rmacz

February 3, 2012 - 5:36 pm EST

Why don't you ask you're Jewish friends to think for themselves, instead of being brainwashed by their Rabbis.
http://www.sidroth.org/site/PageServer?pagename=art_theythought

VALawyer

February 3, 2012 - 5:14 pm EST

The government establishing a religion isn't going to begin with something blatant and obvious as passing a law requiring people to attend a Baptist church every Sunday, for example. The courts have recognized there are very subtle ways the government can exercise its influence and that sneaky politicians can take advantage of that.

UNCG2004

February 3, 2012 - 8:43 pm EST

Great point! Look at what Hitler did, these are the same type of seeds that he planted. I am not saying that they are going to be like Hitler, or believe in his ideals, but it would make it very possible for them to start something similar if they are not controlled. I would prefer to be on the safe side.

retiree

February 4, 2012 - 6:21 am EST

And what about the seeds that have been planted in our country to remove religion from our culture? The schools can't teach intelligent design, only Darwinism. The decay of our society is not due to an enlightened public, it is precisely because of our removal of our religious foundations.

Interested

February 4, 2012 - 7:21 am EST

The decline in our society has little to nothing to do with prayers to particular deities, led by elected representatives or their invitees, not being permitted in public buildings. That's just an easy excuse to bandy about because individuals chose to ignore the golden rule.

Would government prayers in NY and DC government meetings have changed Wall Street practices? I don't think so. Would government prayers in DC stop lecherous old men from hitting on young pages, both male and female. I don't think so. Why would I say this? Because as this article states, our representatives in Raleigh have participated in just such prayer. Has it stopped them from making questionable choices?

The decline in our society stems from personal choice changes. How many churches have seen a decline in attendance in the past 30-40 years? How has the divorce rate changed in the past 30-40 years? How has the rate of uncollected child support increased in the past 30-40 years?

To believe that having a government body lead a meeting with prayer to a particular deity will cure our society's ills is like believing putting lipstick on a pig will change that pig into a swan.

itsallaboutyou

February 4, 2012 - 9:26 am EST

Our country's forefathers knew that religion and moral values were at least 1 leg of the table and possibly 2. Without it, our country will cease to exist. Our government is moving towards tyranny and government control of virtually everything we do. There can be no freedom and liberty without religion. That is not to say it has to be Christianity, but God has to be in our government and people must be guided by the presence of a higher being for our country to continue to be the special place that it is. The pendulum has swung too far and it is time for it to come back. We must fight for what we believe in, but not in the physical sense of the matter. The ACLU and people who want to strip religion out of everything must be challenged, and our Supreme Court must do a better job at interpreting the constitution of this country. There is no where in the Constitution that says there must be separation of church and state.

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

Saying a prayer before a meeting is not establishing a religion.

Its ironic that right after "CONGRESS shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion" that they wrote freedom of speech and freedom of the press, but there's a huge movement to stifle any speech of religion or mention of the word God. People can say what they want to just don't say the word "God" or you are establishing religion.

There can be no "Hope and Change" without God.

gaga

February 3, 2012 - 4:23 pm EST

The interpretation of the first amendment has been misconstrued from it's original intent to the point that the writers of the Constitution would not even recognize it. The purpose was to protect religion from being government run not government censored.

February 3, 2012 - 5:07 pm EST

I'm afraid you are misinformed.

The Founding Fathers were not far removed from a series of violent religious wars between Christian Sects that were the result of the Protestant Reformation. They understood all to well that even within Christianity, one religious faith was not above restricting the rights of others. The only way to solve the problem was to remove religion from government altogether. That's why a religious means test is specifically prohibited in the Constitution as a condition of holding office (these tests effectively kept Catholics out of office in Great Britain until very recently).

The Establishment Clause was well written, and the Supreme Court has done a good job of interpreting it for the benefit of Americans. Non-Christian faiths, and even some Christian faiths, have been heavily persecuted in this country: look at the history of Mormonism if you don't believe me.

Keep religion in church, where it belongs.

February 3, 2012 - 8:01 pm EST

Christianis believe that our faith is a lifestyle not a religion and is lived in our daily lives not just one day a week in church. If we don't stand up for Jesus in our daily lives, we have failed in our commission. If people choose not to participate in Christian prayer that is their perogative just as it is ours not to participate in their prayers. My prayer is for a Christian revival in this country before it is too late. I may be jeered and condemned but I will take my stand.

snapandwhistle

February 3, 2012 - 8:30 pm EST

As a Christian, I live my life as a testament. Jesus was specific in his thought about people who pray to bring attention to themselves in Matthew 6:5, "And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full."

Will it be okay with you when Senator Abdullah stands before the State Senate and chants his prayer to Allah?

I pray for a Christian revival, too. One where people start acting like Christ instead of just talking about how un-Christian everyone else is.

SunsuN723...

February 3, 2012 - 10:24 pm EST

Amen, SnapandWhistle.

February 4, 2012 - 2:30 am EST

It's just modern mythology. Wise up people.

February 4, 2012 - 6:26 am EST

Your discussion might get more reasoned responses, but your comments show an immaturity with a condescending tone. Wise up? How about you learning to be a little more sensitive to the beliefs of others rather than to laugh at their beliefs.

minkheel

February 3, 2012 - 10:55 pm EST

The Founding Fathers' notion of christianity was a far cry from what modern christians practice (to say nothing of the beliefs of evangelical christians, which would have appalled the Founding Fathers). They were Deists, and believed in god as, essentially, a cosmic watchmaker. He created the universe, wound it up, and then left it to run while he went off and did other, more godly things. Their version of god had far better things to do than listen to prayers of people on earth or to intervene in the affairs of men. See, aren't you glad that they did not want to endorse any religion, lest you would not be permitted to practice yours at this point.

RandolphBloke

February 3, 2012 - 6:40 pm EST

I can't wait to hear how they will justify all the money spent to defend their decision in a time of budget cuts and their continued talk of austerity measures.

February 4, 2012 - 5:59 am EST

They'll not have to defend such expenses. There will always be enough voters who will be willing to toss money into a fight against "activist judges," even when they're on the most conservative supreme court in decades.

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