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Battle takes shape over gay marriage

Sunday, August 28, 2011
(Updated 3:05 am)

GREENSBORO — Anyone visiting Bob Page’s office on the second floor of Replacements Ltd.’s sprawling Knox Road complex will likely focus on one of two features: pictures of his adopted 12-year-old twin boys perched on the edge of his desk or a large window looking down on the china-laden showroom.

Truth be told, Page probably would be happier talking about the company he founded or his boys’ achievements rather than a proposed amendment to add a ban on gay marriage to North Carolina’s constitution.

But the Rockingham County native, a PAC formed by his company’s employees and some members of his staff are working against the measure, which lawmakers may consider during a session that begins Sept. 12.

Backers of the amendment — various politically conservative and religious groups — say it is needed to preserve North Carolina’s state law that defines marriage as between one man and one woman.

Page says it’s merely an attempt to institutionalize bigotry against his family, which includes his longtime partner, Dale Frederiksen.

“I know personally about this because I have a sister and her two daughters who are fundamentalists, and they believe Dale and I, you know, there’s no hope for our salvation,” he said. “And they also don’t think our family is a valid family.”

Lawmakers will consider a number of proposed constitutional amendments and other matters during what is expected to be a four- or five-day session.

The amendment needs approval of three-fifths of the House and Senate and then would be put on the ballot for voter approval.

Other amendments that might be discussed would limit the terms of legislative leaders and curb the state’s use of its power to take property.

But the battle over the gay marriage ban is likely to be highest profile and hardest fought.

The measure is inextricably linked to 2012 politics, when voters will cast ballots for president, governor and legislative offices. Backers hope a push to end North Carolina’s status as the only state in the Southeast without a constitutional definition of marriage will bring out conservative voters in large numbers.

Reports from behind-the-scenes negotiations among legislators say some conservative Democrats favor the amendment but would like to blunt its political impact by putting it on the May primary ballot.

Those pushing the amendment eschew talk about the political calculus involved, focusing instead on what they say is an ongoing threat to traditional families.

“Marriage was ordained by God, not by government. God set it in motion,” said the Rev. Ron Baity, president of Return America, a Winston-Salem-based conservative Christian organization that has led rallies in Raleigh on behalf of the amendment.

“We’re trying to uphold the biblical standard of marriage.”

Baity sees a persistent danger that an “activist judge” could strike down North Carolina’s gay marriage ban, pointing to litigation in California, Iowa and Massachusetts. Thus far, there doesn’t appear to be a North Carolina case challenging the marriage law.

Baity is unequivocal in his language, calling homosexuality an “error” and saying that failing to push back against gay marriage would open the door to other social ills.

“I said a long time ago that if we allow the fence down on the marriage issue, then there will come a day when things like pedophilia will be looked at with ease and become accepted,” he said.

That kind of statement enrages some people inside and outside the gay rights movement.

Page seems content to laugh off the more extreme rhetoric.

During an interview last week, he showed off a web posting that said the recent earthquake along the eastern seaboard was caused by permissive attitudes toward gay marriage.

Many of those against the amendment point out that there’s been no great push to legalize gay marriage — only an effort to stop further institutionalization of the ban.

Page wonders what the fuss is about.

“The question I would ask, on the issue of gay marriage — why would it harm anyone else here in the state of North Carolina if my partner and I could get married and that our two sons could legally have two parents? I don’t see that it would hurt anybody,” he said.

Tami Fitzgerald, who leads the N.C. Values Coalition, said North Carolinians risk losing their right to define marriage as between one man and one woman by leaving the definition out of the constitution.

“The population of North Carolina support marriage as defined as between one man and one woman,” she said, pointing to polling.
In fact, the polling tends to be mixed, particularly in national surveys.

An April poll from the conservative Civitas Institute in Raleigh found that 7 in 10 North Carolina voters supported a constitutional amendment.

A February Elon University Poll found that only 35 percent of respondents opposed “any legal recognition for same sex couples,” and 29 percent favored civil unions or legal partnerships but not full marriage rights. When asked if they would support or oppose a constitutional amendment, nearly 56 percent of respondents said they “opposed” or “strongly opposed” such an amendment.

Fitzgerald and other backers of the amendment dismiss the Elon Poll’s questions as leading. But Mileah Kromer, an Elon University political science professor who oversees the poll, said the findings track with national data that suggest that fervor in favor of constitutional bans of gay marriage is waning while acceptance of civil unions is spreading.

Andrew Spainhour, Replacements Ltd.’s general counsel, said public sentiment, whatever it is, shouldn’t govern state law.

“We in our country do not put the rights of a minority up for referendum, up for a vote,” he said.

Fitzgerald bristles at the idea that the marriage amendment is a civil rights issue.

“It’s not about civil rights, and it’s an insult to the civil rights movement to say so,” Fitzgerald said.

Amendment opponents recently opened another front in the battle, saying it could hurt North Carolina’s economic prospects. Legislation seen as anti-gay could drive away gay entrepreneurs or gay-friendly companies that might want to offer domestic partner benefits, they say.

Spainhour said Replacements could be forced to drop its domestic partnership coverage under at least one version of the marriage amendment.

Page estimates that between 75 and 100 of his roughly 460 employees are gay.

Pointing to Replacements’ recent $10 million, 200,000-square-foot renovation, Spainhour said it would be hard to imagine another company with Replacement’s emphasis on equal treatment of workers coming to North Carolina during a campaign over a marriage amendment.

“Ask yourself if another Bob Page would plan a building like that here in this environment,” he said.

Contact Mark Binker at (919) 832-5549 or mark.binker@news-record.com

Accompanying Photos

Jerry Wolford (News & Record)

Photo Caption: The State Capitol building in downtown Raleigh.

Comments

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worker ant

August 28, 2011 - 4:39 am EDT

I wonder if those who are pro-homosexual marriage feel that it's ok for a man to marry his son, as long as the son is 18 or older. If not, then why?

gsosteve

August 28, 2011 - 7:12 am EDT

Certainly no more appropriate than a man marrying his daughter, as long as she's 18 or older. Your comment makes no sense whatsoever. I am not gay, buf I'm also not a bigot. I personnaly applaud this man, as I'm sure that him and his partner do a far superior job raising those 2 children than many, I dare so most, heterosexual couples would.

retiree

August 28, 2011 - 7:28 am EDT

This issue is one of culture and age, and as long as the majority of those in the legislature are older than 40, it will be a hot topic. The issue is not marriage per se, but same sex unions which could provide the same legal rights of a married couple, but not the religious sanctity of marriage. The breakdown of our society is, in part, due to the breakdown of the traditional marriage where a father and mother (two distinct roles) have been eroded to the point that many children grow up these days without knowing their fathers or mothers and living in a home with only one. I've seen statistics where 70% of Black children don't know who their father was. That is sad.

And gsosteve, worker ant may or may not be a bigot and using those terms demeans your argument. Name calling and labeling of one kind or the other does not advance the discussion.

GsoFan

August 28, 2011 - 7:39 am EDT

I agree with gsosteve, workerant's comment did nothing to raise the level of this discussion. It made no sense and has no basis in fact. This topic polarizing enough without adding falsehoods and equating gay marriage with incest or pedophilia.

osprey

August 28, 2011 - 9:01 am EDT

GsoFan, you've either missed the point of Workerant's comment or you're throwing out a canard to create a false narrative. He said "a man to marry his son as long as his son is 18 or older." That clearly leaves out both pedophilia and incest. Workerant didn't say, "he could marry his own son before he turned 18."

Although I agree with the biblical basis of man+woman=marriage, I also know that it's the only form of relationship that perpetuates the species and marriage institutionalizes a rational and legal relationship intended to continue this process.

And before you say, "But some animals engage in homosexual acts," I'd tell you that is true. However, that does nothing to perpetuate species. If an entire species was homosexual, it would disappear in two generations.

I don't hate gays or lesbians, and I don't bash them. I do think they reach too far for trying to make their relationships a societal norm. And I don't question that they can be good parents, but what effect does the visibility of their lifestyle have on their kids? I think that's a problem all its own.

Panacea

August 28, 2011 - 9:17 am EDT

osprey, incest is a sexual relationship with a close blood relative regardless of gender.

However, worker ant is throwing out a strawman argument. No one is suggesting legalizing incest. No one is even suggesting legalizing gay marriage.

Most importantly: GAYS ARE NOT PEDOPHILES! GAYS ARE NOT INCESTUOUS!

Nor are lesbians.

Pedophilia and incest are two completely different subjects from homosexuality, and both are more likely to be perpetrated by heterosexuals than homosexuals.

The_Doctor

August 31, 2011 - 1:59 pm EDT

One quick point of clarification, Panacea: some gays are paedophiles, and some are incestuous. Take for example homosexual priests who are caught molesting boys. Sounds like an act of paedophia to me. There is some overlap between homosexuals and paedophilia/incest, just as there are heterosexuals who do those things. As for your argument that heterosexuals are more likely to do those things, there is no statistical evidence that this is true on a per capita basis. If you have hard evidence to back up your claim on this, it is incumbent upon you to provide it. However, I do agree with your statement that "worker ant" was making a specious claim.

ppatch

August 28, 2011 - 10:29 am EDT

Incest is incest regardless the age of the family members. Pedophilia is a separate issue, and neither of the abnormal behaviors you addressed are standard behaviors in the gay community. Statistics prove that the majority of incest and/or pedophilia occurrences are perpetrated by heterosexual males- regardless the sex of the child. It is very rarely a homosexual issue.

I must question your propagation of the species argument, as well. We, as a species on this planet, are over populated. Every child born this year could be gay without creating a noticeable decline in population.

The only logical rationale I can see for opposition to gay marriage is personal aversion to the thought of allowing homosexual people the right to marry. All other arguments (not just yours) regarding this subject are based on illogical and pejorative rhetoric.

Finally, marriage is only sacrosanct to the people who choose to make it so, not by dictate, leaving the sanctity of marriage a human issue, rather than one of sexual inclination.

RockyMissouri

August 30, 2011 - 12:10 pm EDT

You are certainly right about that! Gay and LGBT folks make wonderful parents, friends and neighbors.. I used to be a bigot. The fact that I am no longer, is due to the fact that my love for a dear friend allowed me to see that gay people are no threat to anybody, and should be honored and treated with fairness and equal rights..... as ALL our citizens should be.

Waldo Leidecker

August 28, 2011 - 9:23 am EDT

You really ARE an idiot.

revee

August 28, 2011 - 10:46 am EDT

To workerant, your comment just begs the question: "why would your mind go there?"

GreensboroDem

August 28, 2011 - 12:16 pm EDT

This is the old "slippery slope" argument that has been made for years against same-sex marriage. The fact is that law exists on a slippery slope. No matter what change is made to the law you can always make this argument - look for an extreme and say "but it might lead to this." This story was not about those issues. No one is proposing legalizing those things. Everyone knows that is much different.

BeReasonable

August 28, 2011 - 8:24 am EDT

No one is or will be forced to approve of same-sex unions. If you don't approve, you don't approve. But that doesn't mean that I'm wrong because I'm OK with same-sex unions, now does it?
For the record: I'm a happily married heterosexual female who hopes that this news article doesn't have a negative impact on a wonderful locally owned and operated business.

rightwingnemesis

August 28, 2011 - 9:58 pm EDT

So sad to see the ignorance and bigotry rear its head here. Same arguments were used to oppose freeing slaves, giving African Americans the vote, Giving women the vote and as recent as the ERA in the 70's. Giving women equal rights was going to lead to women using men's restrooms, being drafted, fighting in wars.
IGNORANCE AND BIGOTRY. Alive today.

batshalom

August 28, 2011 - 8:53 am EDT

Worker ant, your (insulting) comment is typical of those who are against same-sex marriage but it is a slip in logic. Although the argument might initially appeal to some, you set up exclusivities that don't exist, thus creating a false dilemma. It is not an "either / or" situation.

I do not understand why anyone concerns him- or herself with who marries whom. I am not certain how anyone's private consenting adult relationship affects anyone else although it would be refreshing to hear a well-considered and logical explanation. The 14th amendment guarantees of life, liberty, and property; thus, denying a citizen the ability to marry is denying that citizen liberty that is granted to another social group. This is blatant discrimination and has no place in modern society.

GibsonvilleMan

August 28, 2011 - 9:02 am EDT

Does seperation of Church and State only apply on certain things. Should it also apply to Marriage, so that men and women could also marry the same sex?

gsoagt

August 28, 2011 - 9:14 am EDT

So many things wasting the time with this government is tied to religion. Why? Because the biggest lobby in the world is "the church." In the first half of the last century, it was race. This century, they found another group to batter. When will it end? With NC being one of the nation's leaders in unemployment, you would think our legislature would be spending time finding ways to encourage companies to come to NC not to leave it...

rmacz

August 28, 2011 - 9:31 am EDT

'The Church" does not run business's off....ha!

If any thing , the opposite is true. For example, Ray Kroc was attracted to Church Steeples when selecting building sites for McDonalds.

As for the topic here, ignorance is going to seed.

gsoagt

August 28, 2011 - 6:57 pm EDT

I did not say the church (notice the small c) ran off business... just those that use the church to propagate bigotry.

rmacz

August 28, 2011 - 9:32 pm EDT

Not bigotry, the truth.

gsoagt

August 28, 2011 - 10:23 pm EDT

It may be your truth... But I think that real Truth would be more appealing. Most religions teach the Golden Rule... you know, the whole "Do unto others" thing... and Judge not stuff... Do you know anything about those teachings? Regardless, this is a governmental ruling and religion should have no part in the decision...

rmacz

August 29, 2011 - 5:40 am EDT

Obviously, you do do not want to except the other part of the truth....if you know the truth, then you'll be set free....then you you'll be free indeed. It's you bondage, not mine. You can be close minded, but you'll have to live with yourself.

Panacea

August 28, 2011 - 9:22 am EDT

Quite, frankly I would love to see marriage become a non-legal issue.

However, there are very complicated legal issues to consider with marriage. The institution was created to handle property rights; to keep property within the family and to provide for the widow (who often had few if any other legal rights). It's still the law here in North Carolina that the widow gets 1/3rd of the estate.

So how do we handle issues of home ownership, retirement rights (the survivor gets Social Security and pension benefits, plus any other financial benefit), bank accounts, cars, and personal property rights if we do away with marriage. And what about things like life insurance and health insurance?

I'm sure there would be a way, but it would be clunky and culturally uncomfortable, far more so than allowing gays to marry.

debbie7

August 28, 2011 - 9:11 am EDT

This issue impacts so many lives but yet our politicians are only concerned with election or re-election. Also, as the article is written, all protests appear religion driven. Which in my mind is not allowed to be considered by politicians and judicial representatives when making decisions. This is a civil rights issue, regardless of what some may think. The gay community should give the heterosexuals their"marriage". Afterall, they have all ready ruined and disgraced Marriage. Civil union with the same rights guaranteed to gay couples as marriage would be much better. That way they have something that is not shared,tainted and disgraced as marriage. One last thing. This issue should not be decided by the public. It should be decided by the constitution and those whose job is to enforce the constitution.

gsoagt

August 28, 2011 - 7:01 pm EDT

It is all the same, no matter what you call it. Perhaps for governmental purposes, everyone, gay or straight, should have to have a "Civil Union." Then, the couple could be "Married" by a spiritual community that accepts them for who they are. I know I would not want to be married by a church that did not respect me or my partner.

senebou

August 28, 2011 - 9:19 am EDT

Legal marriage is a contract and and the ability to make that contract legally should not be defined by religious interests. There are host of reasons why this should not be an issue for anyone but the most important one to me is that two people who want to make a commitment to each other, take care of each other, buy a house, raise healthy children should not be discouraged from doing so, no matter what. I am friends with several gay couples who have over twenty years of commitment to each other. I do not understand why anyone is against this basic right, it is cruel and un-Christian of them to be so bigoted.

Waldo Leidecker

August 28, 2011 - 9:29 am EDT

It's truly pathetic that the Republinazis want everyone to be just like them - greedy racists who promote fear and hatred. If you care dwellers would simply mind your business (and go back spending your time worhsipping your one and only God, the "Allmighty Dollar") this country would be a much better place.

rmacz

August 28, 2011 - 11:29 am EDT

Leave it to Waldo, to ass-u-me ...ha!

Panacea

August 28, 2011 - 9:32 am EDT

If gays want to suffer with the rest of us with the institution of marriage, I see no reason for them not to.

It used to make me very uncomfortable.

Then I realized I was letting my prejudices get in the way of common sense and reason.

Marriage existed loooonng before the Bible, and in practically every other society and culture known to man including those not Judeo-Christian based. So to say that marriage is ordained by God is just plain silly. Most of the world practices it, and most of the world is not Christian.

We have a separation of Church and State for the very wise reason our Founding Fathers knew religion could be used as a club to beat down unpopular minorities. They knew this because they experienced it (Maryland's government was taken over by Puritans who wasted no time in creating legal barriers for the majority Catholics, or Massachusetts whose witch trials were used to eliminate unpopular families).

If Rev. Baity doesn't want to marriage a gay or lesbian couple in his church, then he doesn't have to. If he wants to be a boor and condemn gays to their faces, he can do that too. It's a free country.

But he can keep his religious opinions out of state law. I don't want them there.

I want our legislature to focus on JOBS. This proposed amendment is government overreach into private lives; the very thing conservatives rail against. Stay out of our personal lives! Focus on the economy!

revee

August 28, 2011 - 10:38 am EDT

Ahhhh..........how we love to use the Bible to beat those over the head with whom we do not agree and we can't wait to invoke it in the legislature to create laws against things that irritate our comfort zones. In a country where premarital sex, divorce, and single motherhood is more the norm than the exception how dare anyone offer up a biblical/legal definition of "family". Family is whatever family is to me, whatever it is to my neighbor and whatever it is to you. Don't fence it and don't legislate it with regard to who is allowed to marry and become a family. If you held the Bible to your strict religious laws then here in North Carolina God himself could be arrested and tried for statutory rape. According to the Statutory Rape Laws of North Carolina 14.27.7A: Statutory Rape is defined as sexual intercourse between a 13, 14, or 15 year old by someone at least 6 years older unless they are lawfully married. As I recall, most theologians over the years have gauged Mary's age at somewhere around 14 and God was considerably older than that, and I don't recall any mention of a marriage ceremony. If Bob Page and his partner wish to get married it does not threaten my marriage of 42 years. If it threatens yours then maybe you need to take a step back and reassess your own nuptials, not theirs.

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