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Spanking-in-schools foes try again

Wednesday, March 10, 2010
(Updated 2:31 pm)
By Gary D. Robertson
Associated Press

RALEIGH (AP) — Children's advocates in North Carolina who lost a political tussle over corporal punishment in the public schools last year are trying again this year by focusing on a spanking ban for children with disabilities.

Action for Children North Carolina today released a report (pdf) that showed corporal punishment was used more than 1,400 times in 26 school districts that still use it during the last school year.

The group asked state legislators to pass a broad ban for children with physical, mental or similar challenges. They said there are better ways to deal with disruptive behavior.

Districts have the option to use corporal punishment. In 2009, the state Senate rejected a bill that would have allowed adults to opt out their children in the districts that still use it.

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Panacea

March 10, 2010 - 2:33 pm EST

If the ban is overly broad, it will be applied to all children by default.

wscbd

March 10, 2010 - 3:34 pm EST

So far, the only data supporting the effectiveness of corporal punishment consists of individuals saying, "I was spanked and it worked on me!"
Meanwhile, study after study supports common sense - that spanking does not curb misbehavior, that children who are spanked are more likely to misbehave, and that later in life, teens and adults who were spanked regularly have a greater likelihood of engaging in deviant or criminal behavior. One can perhaps attempt a chicken and egg argument about what these data show, but at best, one can argue that spanking is pointless and ineffective, while at worst the data support the argument that spanking creates more deviant behavior than it corrects.

Brandon Burgess

March 10, 2010 - 3:43 pm EST

Fair enough, but how do we explain the fact that there are more murders, rapes, weapons, fights/riots and drugs in schools since corporal punishment was abolished or is unenforced in a majority of districts?

Panacea

March 10, 2010 - 3:44 pm EST

By the disengagement of parents in rearing their children.

BROWNS SUMMIT SCOTT

March 10, 2010 - 10:07 pm EST

you are correct. But since that doesnt happen, why do my children have to go to school in fear because those kids are in the same school? How do you correct them?

wscbd

March 10, 2010 - 3:50 pm EST

Pancreas beat me to it.
If you have any experience with the contemporary American family, then you know that the parents of the most problematic children are most often the ones who still spank as punishment.

CADDMAN

March 10, 2010 - 4:01 pm EST

Someone please tell me these two (panacea and wscbd) did not reproduce.

Everyone wants to know why the Country is in the toilet?

Take a look at these two.

tbench

March 10, 2010 - 4:04 pm EST

Tell it like it is caddman, maybe they haven't been to a guilford school lately or never had children!

wscbd

March 10, 2010 - 4:25 pm EST

I bet you folks are the same ones who constantly say that it's not the school's responsibility to raise your children.
I have a daughter, and she was never spanked. Salutatorian at her high school, full AP/IB curriculum, now at Columbia.

left-wing conspiracy theorist

March 10, 2010 - 4:44 pm EST

It isn't the school's responsibility to raise your children. I also have daughters: my first one required very little redirection, but she learned self-discipline and how to respect others just the same (she's serving in the Navy); my younger one requires, shall we say, quite a bit more 'attention', but make no mistake, she will learn all the same lessons.

BROWNS SUMMIT SCOTT

March 10, 2010 - 10:13 pm EST

wsbcd: I am glad your daughter turned out to be such a wonderful person, seriously. But I can name as many or more who were just as, and in many cases more successful and were spanked. Parenting works, but what do you do with those who arent parented? You dont want to kick them out do you? So what happens? The kids like yours who are doing what they are supposed to are affected. How does a kid concentrate knowing theres a good chance there is a gun in school, classes interupted 15-30 minutes by smart mouthed kids, teachers having to leave classrooms to escort said kids to the office?

wscbd

March 10, 2010 - 10:33 pm EST

The far-superior schools of other nations know that not all children have within them the potential for greatness. Most children, like most adults, are idiots. We need to stop feeding into this narcissistic ideal of every child being capable of achieving any goal. Schools need to teach to students' strengths and recognize their weaknesses, and classes must be segregated based upon students' intelligence, performance, and established strengths.

BROWNS SUMMIT SCOTT

March 10, 2010 - 10:42 pm EST

wscbd: I can agree with you 100 percent on this post

left-wing conspiracy theorist

March 10, 2010 - 4:37 pm EST

Panacea is absolutely correct, as he said it is the 'disengagement of parents in raising their children'. It all starts by giving in to a child who has difficulty accepting the word 'no'. Once kids learn they can get over a parent, they will never accept that parent as an authority figure. For the lazy, disengaged parent, it's a lot easier caving into their children than holding the line, it's a lot easier to have low or no behavioral and/or educational expectations for their children than to follow through with consequences. It's a lot easier to give them a video game system than to make them read; it's a lot easier to give them a cell phone with unlimited minutes and texting than to set an expectation that they make the honor roll. So these kids act out and don't achieve in school, and it's the school's fault. Something's not right.

BROWNS SUMMIT SCOTT

March 10, 2010 - 10:15 pm EST

left wing: this is sarchasm right?

left-wing conspiracy theorist

March 11, 2010 - 4:05 am EST

The only sarcasm is in this line:

"So these kids act out and don't achieve in school, and it's the school's fault."

oakridge98

March 10, 2010 - 4:03 pm EST

I'd like to see your basis for this comment. Violent crime in schools has actually decreased significantly since the 1990s and rape in the NC school system is rare and sexual assaults overall are down. Possession of a firearm or explosive devices is also down. http://www.ncpublicschools.org/docs/research/discipline/reports/consolid... and http://youthviolence.edschool.virginia.edu/violence-in-schools/national-... are some references

Brandon Burgess

March 10, 2010 - 10:11 pm EST

Are you suggesting that corporal punishment was prevalent in the 1990's? As for the rest of the statistics, Guilford County Schools reported one gun on a campus last year. I call BS.

BROWNS SUMMIT SCOTT

March 10, 2010 - 10:57 pm EST

I can recall at least 2 times last year at one middle school, and 1 time at an elementary alone. Stats are great but until schools are honest an report them we will never know. Just look how upset the school board got with the Sherriffs dept last week for reporting several fights, a major drug bust, and faculty assault at 1 school in 1 week.

left-wing conspiracy theorist

March 10, 2010 - 4:22 pm EST

"So far, the only data supporting the effectiveness of corporal punishment consists of individuals saying, 'I was spanked and it worked on me!' "

Allow me to add to the data: In the past 2 years, I have worked with roughly 100 children without a male disciplinarian in their lives, and it isn't working for them. Not that it's the school' s responsibility to raise their students.

BROWNS SUMMIT SCOTT

March 10, 2010 - 10:05 pm EST

data is useless. Numbers are twisted my friend. How many things did you hear about in schools like, gangs, misbehavior problems, large drug bust, teacher/faculty asssaults before? These didnt happen until corporal punishment was taken away. Why you ask? Because kids new if they misbehaved there was a punishment to come. I will sign off on no spankings IF GCS would come up with a punishment for unruly kids, other than a stern talking to. Truth is time out doesnt work in school. Spend a week in a public school as a teacher/observer and see what you think. How about if you act up you get kicked out? Obviously the hug/counselling theory is failing miserably. Problem is kids view school as a place they have to go, instead of get to go, therefore they do what they want, and in the KIDS words "whutch you gonna do bout it?!" What is your idea on punishment? Find the data that shows schools who have improved in the misbehavior area since paddlings were taken away. No you cant use lower suspension rates b/c ISS is not reported, and schools do everything to hide those because it hurts their evaluation

wscbd

March 10, 2010 - 10:27 pm EST

I taught 2nd grade for one year at a school called J.O. Wilson in DC. I enjoyed it, but I was young and greedy and missed the much larger income from the federal job from which I had just retired. But in that single year of teaching, I didn't have a single problem student. I was warned by all of the teachers about this student or that one, and within the first weeks of class, I almost believed those teachers' warnings. But they were wrong. The problem wasn't the students. It was their parents and it was the those teachers. I made it clear to my students what I expected of them and I told them what they should expect of me. We held each other to those standards. By the end of the year, I knew that the one thing that every one of my students wanted more than anything was to please me and that their biggest fear was doing something to disappoint me. Not only did my students exceed the expectations that I'd had at the start of the year, but their subsequent teachers later told me that their excellence continued after I had left.
I never threatened my students with violence, nor did I even consider it. I treated them as I had treated my own child. Bad parents plus bad teachers will virtually guarantee poor student performance and behavior. Schools can't do anything about poor parenting, but they can at least take the bad teachers out of the equation.

RRVKEV

March 10, 2010 - 4:06 pm EST

The kids in school have nothing to fear.What do you suggest, time out ?Sure we have a lot of parents that neglect to teach their kids right from wrong but I am a firm believer " spare the rod spoil the child ".I have 2 girls heading for high school and they have had a few spankings in their younger years but not anything excessive.I Just put the fear of Dad in them.The key is a 2 parent ( Male-Female )family.

left-wing conspiracy theorist

March 10, 2010 - 4:23 pm EST

Amen!

Dogwood

March 10, 2010 - 4:22 pm EST

Corporal attacks for behavior modification are evil. It makes no sense to argue I was beaten and I learned. It also makes no sense to believe every family is normal. Public schools have no place for premeditated "spanking". Teacher's that spank should be fired along with the school administration. Write a law: Spanking in a public school has a punishment of ten years in prison. Lose the behavioral science argument and simply strike the ablility of an employee to wound a child.

RRVKEV

March 10, 2010 - 4:34 pm EST

I would love to see how your kids turn out ! No one is talking about a beating.A paddle on the backside works just fine.We sure didn't want to go back to the principles office again.Behavior problems in schools have gotten completely out of control since the bleeding hearts took out the paddle.We didn't need police officers or tasers. Which do you prefer?Tasers or paddles.

wscbd

March 10, 2010 - 4:39 pm EST

Neither. Using neither works just fine. Since when is it the schools' responsibility to discipline your children? You're incapable of doing it yourself without resorting to violence?

left-wing conspiracy theorist

March 10, 2010 - 4:50 pm EST

Spanking isn't about violence. It's about re-direction and consequences. If a person cannot spank a child without being violent, that person has no business being around children.

wscbd

March 10, 2010 - 4:59 pm EST

But these "redirection and consequences" are not possible without using negative physical interaction? A young child is incapable of distinguishing between violence and what you would consider acceptable physical correction. A smack is a smack, whether you do it out of love or out of anger.
Just one set of statistics on the subject...
Violent inmates at San Quentin: 100% reported extreme physical punishment as children.
Juvenile Delinquents: 64% reported extreme physical punishment as children.
High School drop-outs: 69% reported severe physical punishment as children.
College freshmen: 63% reported zero to moderate physical punishment as children.
Professionals: 45% reported rare/no physical punishment as children.
Such results have been reproduced in many studies.
Because corporal punishment is acceptable to some of you, I personally volunteer to "correct" your bad behavior in the future.

left-wing conspiracy theorist

March 10, 2010 - 5:54 pm EST

Say a 3 year old child keeps trying to put her hand on a hot stove, despite many verbal redirections. Would you allow keep watching your child, so you can continue to verbally redirect her; go about your business in the kitchen, believing that your child will listen to you because you said so; or slap her hand the next time the she reaches for the stove, thus making sure she understands a) that she is to follow your directions and b) that touching the stove is not appropriate.
I can slap my 3 year old's hand, (or butt, whatever to get her attention) without being violent or doling out 'severe physical punishment', and I can also keep her from being burned. She will scream for 30 seconds, but she learns the lesson. If you would rather continue playing games with your child over a hot stove, thus giving her some of your power as a parent, or risk letting her burn herself, that's your perogative, I guess.

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