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GTCC grading system to change this fall

Friday, January 22, 2010
(Updated 5:23 pm)

GREENSBORO — What makes a grade an A?

At GTCC, it has to be at least a 94. But at other community colleges that use a 10-point grading scale, it could be a 90.

GTCC officials say that difference could be a critical factor when students are competing for scholarships, jobs and admission to four-year universities.

In the fall, GTCC will make the transition from a seven-point grading scale to a 10-point scale.

On the college’s current seven-point scale: 94-100 equals an A; 86-93, a B; 78-85, a C; and 70-77 , a D.

On the 10-point scale, 90-100 equals an “A,” and anything below 60 is failing.

Brenda Kays, vice president for instruction at GTCC, said most community colleges and four-year schools in the state use a 10-point grading scale.

“A seven-point scale is a scale that is commonly utilized by secondary school systems,” she said.

GTCC’s board of trustees approved the change in June, Kays said, but officials had considered revising the grading system for some time.

Kays said student success is at the heart of the college’s decision to change the way it measures grades.

GTCC students who want to transfer to four-year schools or apply for scholarships may be at a disadvantage when competing against students from other community colleges that use a 10-point scale, she said, since letter grades correspond to numerical ones.

While figuring a grade point average is a complicated formula, Kays said, an A usually translates into a 4.0, while a B translates into a 3.0.

“We really look at this as a way of leveling the playing field for our students,” she said.

School officials are educating students about the change, Kays said. Course syllabuses also will include information about the new grading system.

Not all colleges in the Piedmont Triad use one specific scale.

Faculty at Rockingham Community College set their own grading scales, college officials said. Randolph Community College grades on a seven-point scale.

Contact Jonnelle Davis at 373-7080 or jonnelle.davis@news-record.com

 

Accompanying Photos

Comments

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Draco

January 22, 2010 - 7:06 am EST

This is NOT about student's being successful at another post-secondary institution. This is about MONEY. GTCC has been pushing for more income in the last ten years. There are several ways to accomplish this. First, allow "undocumenteds" to attend classes at in-state prices. Next, don't hire full time employees. The more adjuncts(part-tiime) the less you have to pay in benefits, pay, etc. Then, change the grade point scale so that students can pull a C when they should have a D.
Think about this for a moment. The argument used for changing the grading scale is that all the other schools are doing it. Yet, the counties to the north and south do not use the ten point system. I do know that when I went to undergrad and grad it was a seven point scale. When I took CC courses it was on a seven point system. The only time I had a ten point system was in HS. Where are all those schools with the ten point system?
Here's the real skinny on it. It's the money push, again. If GTCC wants to compete with Davidson, Randolph, Rockingham, Alamance, and Forsythe, they will have to offer something better for the student. "Well, I could go to Randolph but they're on that seven point thing. I want better grades for the crappy work I do. I'll go to GTCC so I can get what I pay for." Then you have an iInstant student enrollment increase. Student enrollment up means more money for the school.
More money for the school should mean more full-time instructors. However at GTCC it does not. It means that they hire another ten adjunct instructors. I challenge you to walk through the halls of GTCC and see how many adjuncts there are at that institution. I'm willing to bet that it is nearly seventy to eighty percent adjunct instructors. More than likely the extra money will go to building another parking lot to accomodate the increase in students. Maybe it will go to build Dr. Cameron another man-made pond with a fountain.
Where does all the money go that arrives at GTCC? (N&R look close) Without a doubt GTCC is a For-Profit-Institution. Instructors and students don't matter. The almighty dollar does.

Panacea

January 22, 2010 - 2:45 pm EST

Sorry, Draco, but you couldn't be more wrong.

GTCC uses a 7 point system because the state community college system required it. Then the rules got relaxed and community colleges could change if they wanted to.

A 7 point system hurts students who have to compete for scholarship money with students from schools that use a 10 point system.

For example, if a GTCC nursing student gets an 85 average in a nursing course, they get a C, not a B. For an 8 credit hour course. That plays havoc with your GPA. A lot of good students have lost scholarships because of this.

Now, I happen to agree we should not allow illegals to attend our schools at in state rates. Let them pay out of state. But the decision on whether or not to allow them to attend, and at what rate, was not made by GTCC but by the state.

The issue of full time vs adjuncts is a tricky one, and it is not a GTCC problem, it is a national problem. A lot of colleges and universities, some of the finest, are wrestling with this issue. Use of adjuncts is cheaper, and they aren't eligible for tenure at schools that offer tenure (GTCC and other community colleges don't). Adjuncts are easier to control by administration. However, adjuncts can also offer quality instruction. There are a lot of very committed adjuncts out there in all fields who work a full time job in their field and teach for the love of it.

All tuition dollars go to the STATE, not the college. GTCC is then given a state budget based on the number of FTE's (Full time equivilencies), that is the number of positions it will take to teach the students enrolled; that number is based on enrollment, which is rising and at historic highs. The NC State Community College System is working to bring faculty salaries up to the national average. I teach in an NC CC, and I've gotten a raise every year except last year due to the economy. I have no issues with my salary or my working conditions.

Some departments may use lots of adjunct faculty, like Developmental Ed. This is due to the high number of students who need remediation. I don't work in Developmental Ed, so I can't speak to the need for full time vs adjunct faculty.

In nursing we have a lot of adjuncts; we have to in order to meet the need of clinical instructors. We have a cap of 210 students in the program. The NC Board of Nursing says we can have 10 students per clinic instructor, but we can't offer each student the time and attention they need in clinic at those numbers, so we try to keep it to no more than 7 or 8. But we don't need for every instructor who teaches in clinic to teach in the classroom (though every full time instructor has at least one, and sometimes two clinic groups), so naturally we are a small department.

Construction comes from a completely different set of funding. Some of it is part of our state budget. Some of it comes from bond money (bond money will be building GTCC a parking deck soon). Some of it comes from donations; the new Health Technologies building was possible thanks to a very large private donation from the Hassell family.

I also think you are being unfair to GTCC in regards to the quality of their education. GTCC offers a good quality education. If a student chooses GTCC simply because of a 10 point grading system, expecting low standards, then they are in for a surprise.

drstrangelove

January 22, 2010 - 9:33 am EST

The previous post misses the point. Grades are always ultimately the discretion of the instructor. Whether it is a 7-point scale or 10-point scale, it is the instructor who is setting up the curriculum to target those grades. An instructor forced into a 7-point system might create a slightly "softer" testing system to achieve that grade. A letter grade is a somewhat arbitrary way of grading, but if most colleges are using it, then it seems to make sense that GTCC follows that trend; is a student who records a 92 in a course substantially less deserving of a scholarship b/c they received "B" for the same course, when a "92" at another school would be rewarded with an "A". Ultimately GTCC is trying to do is to bring the *perception* of its grading system inline with others, such that students appear to have a level playing field to compete for scholarships. And yes, this is about money; every dollar provided in scholarship is a dollar of the legislature-funds that is freed for additional support. Unlike the previous post, I never had a secondary school course provide a 10-point scale; and nearly every college *does* subscribe to the 10-point scale.

Panacea

January 22, 2010 - 2:47 pm EST

Er . . . no. Grades are NOT the discretion of the instructor. The instructor sets standards, and if the student meets those standards then the student earns the appropriate grade.

I do not soften my testing simply because I teach in a 7 point system. I do not plan to toughen it when it becomes a 10 point system. It is what it is.

dcolin

January 22, 2010 - 3:51 pm EST

"Er . . . no. Grades are NOT the discretion of the instructor. "

Maybe not for you.

Until you don't meet retention standards.

DaveW

January 22, 2010 - 6:08 pm EST

We should all AGREE with panacea in this case. She actually works at GTCC and should know what she is talking about THIS time.Even though she does not always respect the viewpoint of an insider working the front lines the rest of us should.On this issue she is only trying to move 5 feet of materials through her 5 foot colon. Not on other issues(like high school academics and athletics)where she tries to get 6.5 feet through there.On 1/22/10
I AGREE 100% with panacea on this issue!

Panacea

January 22, 2010 - 6:22 pm EST

Dave, the snark is beneath you.

DaveW

January 22, 2010 - 9:22 pm EST

Accept the fact that I know what I am doing as an insider and front line worker that cares for who and what I work for.I have never second guessed what you do at and for GTCC.If you accept me and my experience like I just did for you the snark will disappear.
An aside: A recent chemistry graduate from UNCC with a 3,883 gpa--impressive, right?
This one was also an athlete on scholarship the entire 4 years!

Panacea

January 23, 2010 - 8:44 am EST

Insider or not, you can't back up your claims about athletics and grades, You're ticked at me because I poke holes in your arguments that you can't fill. That doesn't justify the snark when we comment on other issues totally unrelated to athletics.

Heck, Beachwalk and Sawdust disagree with me on almost everything, but they don't give me snark just because.

Grow up.

DaveW

January 23, 2010 - 11:48 am EST

You say you poke holes in my arguments,eh? There are holes in ALL arguments about all things even scientific theories. The scientific method is a great thing( I taught high school science for 24 years)but it does not always bat 1.000 either. I totally accept Charles Darwin's Natural selection concept but certain groups with a totally different agenda poke holes in that idea as well. Science is wonderful in that it admits it is wrong when new ideas or concepts are ucovered or improved upon. Example :The Plate Tectonics theory was an improvement and an explanation of why continental drift took place and broke Pangaea up into the continents we have today.You claim to be a scientist but you cannot admit that you are not correct 100% of the time.You are on an ego trip believing you know more than all of us that post here.Scientists admit it when they are wrong. You have rarely done that.The only time I ever saw you admit your mistake was when you posted that NE High School was involved in athletic eligibilty issues and I corrected you and you to your credit then apologized. You got them confused with NW High.You did do the right thing in that case and I gave you credit for doing so. Now you poke holes in my arguments for athletics. I work on the high school level and you refuse to treat my viewpoint on that subject the same way I did yours on GTCC yesterday. GTCC is your element and I do not second guess your viewpoint on anything having to do with GTCC. GCS high school teaching and coaching is my element and you do not give me the same respect.Education with athletic involvement has benefitted (in chronological order)me, as well as countless numbers of student/athletes I have coached from 1982 on, my daughter and now my son. Anyone, you me or whomever will be very defensive when an institution that has been an asset to said person is attacked and its removal is advocated. I showed you 2 studies from East Carolina's School of Education(not their athletic department) that supported the case for high school athletics. You claimed that just because no opposing study was done that it was not relevant.In politics certain elections have some candidate running unopposed and he/she takes office.My conclusion is that either there are not enough athletics naysayers out there or maybe those that are cannot or will not take time to do a study proving athletics is harmful to education.Maybe if they did a study it would be more porous AGAINST it than the 2 ECU studies were FOR it. Also, I saw that GTCC has both men's and women's basketball and both teams are winning at a high percentage. GTCC is also increasing its student body size rapidly. Both of these facts were found in today's News-Record. Apparently having basketball teams has not hurt the school as it continues to grow.You also say I cannot back up my claims about athletics and grades. This is on the UNCC web site. Charlotte student/athletes average GPA's are higher than the average GPA of the student body again for several years running.This is backup. Think about it. Athletes are a subgroup that has an academic standard for being in that subgroup. When the standard is not met they are no longer in the subgroup.
Therefore the subgroup is going to always outperform the non subgroup that has no standards for membership. I thought you were big on statistics.Apparently not.

Draco

January 22, 2010 - 2:54 pm EST

What the previous post missed was the blantent lie perpetrated by the administration of GTCC that the lowering of academic standards is being done by "most" of the universities and community colleges. To compound the lie they say that it will aid students in getting in to other institutions. It may aid them with an inflated grade, but they will not be as successful in the classroom as when they are held to the standards of most universities.
One thing that must be understood is that GTCC cares about one thing: get as many students in the seats as possible so that the coffers fill. There is not an alumni fund. The only source of revenue is putting students in chairs.
As far as saying that nearly every college has a ten point system is baloney. The article even states that Randolph has seven and Rockingham is at the instuctor's whim. I do know that at Durham Tech that college transfer students are provided with seven and vocational is ten. I have taught at several post-secondary institutions in this state either as FT or adjunct and I have yet to see a university use a ten point system.
What GTCC is doing is trying to allow the lower middle student who isn't able to cut it at GTCC a false hope that he or she will make it at the university level. What this is doing is lowering academic standards. This is one more step in the dumbing of America. Thanks for looking toward the future GTCC!

dcolin

January 22, 2010 - 3:48 pm EST

You got it.

Google grade inflation.

See what has happened in the last 40 years.

Just look.

Middle C was average.
Today Middle B is average.

Evolution does not work that fast.

Panacea

January 22, 2010 - 7:02 pm EST

Draco, UNCG uses a 10 point system (I know because I took a class there).

I don't understand your hostility to GTCC. Did you have a bad experience there? How do you justify your claims that moving to a 10 point scale is grade inflation?

Gemini

January 22, 2010 - 3:34 pm EST

I am in graduate school at a large private university in another state. They use a ten point scale, but they also give As and A-. They are different when put into the GPA. I have not made less than an A- but I work very hard to maintain that standard. I do not think going to the ten point scale lowers the standards. To properly transfer to a 4 year school GTCC students need to be on the same scale. Draco seems a little bitter at GTCC.

Garth

January 26, 2010 - 10:23 am EST

Let one of these kids try and transfer to an out of state university - under the 7 point scale many might not qualify for admission in competing with the rest of the country who uses a 10 point system. Then they are at a huge disadvantage for scholarships etc. The field is also the same for High Schools, our kids are at a disadvantage nationally when a 3.0 from most states High Schools would be a 2.0 from ours. Both admissions and scholarships are hurting our kids from NC by the unlevel playing field.

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