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College access for immigrants sparks debate

Saturday, December 19, 2009
(Updated 5:13 am)

RALEIGH — People on both sides of the immigration debate took issue with a proposal to change the State Board of Community College admissions policy for undocumented students during a public hearing Friday.

The board voted in September to allow students who cannot prove legal residency to attend the state’s 58 community colleges, including those based in Guilford, Alamance, Davidson, Randolph and Rockingham counties.

“To deny an entire segment of the population access to education is to institutionalize poverty,” said Jess George, executive director of the Latin American Coalition based in Charlotte.

The Community College Board could give final approval to the policy no sooner than its February meeting, said a spokeswoman for the college. The policy would then be looked over by the state’s Rules Review Commission. And there have been promises to appeal the policy to the General Assembly if the commission approves the policy.

Students, educators and others supported the board’s change in policy. But many said the Community College Board should have gone further.

The proposed policy would require undocumented students to pay out-of-state tuition. Students attending under the policy would not be able to participate in certain degree programs that result in state licenses and would be given lower priority for attending classes than fully documented students.

“There’s different ways of telling people they can’t go to college,” said Justin Flores with the Farm Labor Organizing Committee in Dudley.

The policy seems to give the children of low-wage workers a choice, but the cost involved in paying out-of-state tuition would be prohibitive for most of those students.

“Telling them they have a choice without having the resources or having the ability to get loans like other students is basically telling them they have no choice,” Flores said.

Others objected to the policy, saying it would encourage people to come to North Carolina illegally from other countries.

“Illegals are breaking our laws,” said Ron Woodard of anti-illegal immigration group N.C. Listen, one of a handful that sent representatives. He said that denying entry to students here illegally was not tantamount to denying them an education, as other speakers had said.

“I don’t believe America is the only country that has colleges,” Woodard said.

Others pushing back against the policy voiced their frustration with the meeting’s procedures.

“This entire meeting is a sham,” said William Gheen of ALIPAC, another group that advocates for stricter immigration enforcement.

Gheen noted that the hearing’s first 20 speakers favored more liberal admissions policies and claimed that people with that viewpoint received preferential treatment in signing up to speak.

But community college officials said they signed people up to speak in order and that a line formed before they arrived at the State Archives Building.

The auditorium was not full. Judging by applause and other reactions, the 6-to-1 ratio of people who spoke in favor of less stringent policies reflected the overall mood of the crowd.

Contact Mark Binker at (919) 832-5549 or mark.binker@news-record.com

Comments

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johnodrake

December 19, 2009 - 9:44 am EST

I don't see why there should be a debate. Moreover, the use of the euphemism 'undocumented' as a replacement for illegal irritates me to the core. Why should those who are living in violation of the law be given anything - except a short ride out?

liberaldemocrat

December 19, 2009 - 10:17 am EST

Because we are happy to use them as a cheap labor source in hotels, construction, Christmas tree farms, etc.. These people have children that live their whole lives here. You can educate people and employ them well or you can continue to have immense poverty in our community that frequently brings crime.

igliigli

December 19, 2009 - 12:32 pm EST

As a NC taxpayer, I feel strongly that anyone who wants an education should be welcome at any NC school.

swerdna

December 19, 2009 - 4:56 pm EST

What part do people not understand? The word is "illegal" which meant they have broken the law just by being here! Many also have illegal social security numbers (borrowed from some unsuspecting citizen) and driver's license (obtained by fraudulent means). These are not only here illegally, but are criminals also! We already educate the children in our public schools largely paid for by hard-working US citizens. Those here illegally are a non-entity and pay in far less then they receive.

We owe them nothing! I don't care if they pay TRIPLE what the costs are, anyone without a VALID social security card should not be allowed to attend any educational facility supported by our tax dollars.

If they want an education, let them go back home or come to our country LEGALLY, in which case I will welcome them with open arms.

....

December 19, 2009 - 8:05 pm EST

"Illegal" or "undocumented" immigrants do pay taxes. They pay sales tax, gasoline tax, and real estate tax (if they own or rent a home) just like everyone else. Some do in fact use false social security numbers (either an individual's or one that is not being used), however, the foreign worker does not receive any of the benefits of social security. By using a number that is not theirs, undocumented workers have essentially subsidized the social security system to the tune of about $7 billion (2005) by having social security taxes deducted from their paychecks without receiving any of the benefits.

I am not sure why some are against allowing undocumented immigrants a chance at an education. The majority of these students were brought to North Carolina at a young age, often against their will. They have gone to school here, have payed taxes here, and have worked here most, if not all, of their lives. We should allow these individuals to continue their education not only for their benefit, but also for North Carolina's.

swerdna

December 19, 2009 - 10:20 pm EST

"They pay sales tax, gasoline tax, and real estate tax (if they own or rent a home) just like everyone else."

True, they pay sales tax and gasoline tax as they drive their cars using a driver's license obtained ILLEGALLY! As to real estate tax, frequently multiple illegals live together. For example, on a major GSO street, there's a rental house that has at least 9 adults living there. Yes, I could tell you where it is, but it's easy to spot since there are on the average of 9 cars parked in the tiny yard (so much for the parking ordinance).

"Some do in fact use false social security numbers"

If they are working, they are using a false social security number. This is ILLEGAL! This makes them CRIMINALS! How can you support them being here?

"I am not sure why some are against allowing undocumented immigrants a chance at an education."

Duh... because they're ILLEGAL? They're breaking at LEAST one law by just being here!

"The majority of these students were brought to North Carolina at a young age, often against their will."

I'll have sympathy for them when they go back to their homeland and return via LEGAL means.

"They have gone to school here, have payed taxes here, and have worked here most, if not all, of their lives."

Ah, the old paying taxes line. Do you know what they do? Let me tell you since I have close friends who work in human resources. To work, they've provided a false social security number. They fill out their withholding paperwork. If they have a family of 5, they put down withholding numbers for a family of 10 What does this do? It means almost NOTHING is withheld from their check in taxes. Thus, they don't file returns (since the SS # may send up a flag) and they haven't paid in anything to receive a tax refund. Again.... CRIMINALS!!!

The mere fact that you keep using the term "undocumented" speaks volumns. You can sugarcoat it all you want, but bottom line is they are CRIMINALS and are, daily, involved in ILLEGAL behavior.

....

December 20, 2009 - 12:56 am EST

I understand that people enter, work, and live "illegally" in this country. I am not arguing that they are "legally" here or what they are doing is "legal" under current immigration law. I was simply attempting to refute some common myths regarding "undocumented" immigrants, that reinforces an inhumane and ineffective immigration policy. Furthermore, you are quite redundant, as well as narrow-minded, in placing the blame solely on undocumented workers. Employers throughout the country engage in the illegal and exploitative acts of recruiting and using undocumented workers, while scarce government resources and lax oversight allow, if not encourage, this to happen. We have no problem using "undocumented" foreigners for labor (the Chinese, the Puerto Rican Bracero program, and obviously African slaves), in fact our economy depends on it, but when it comes to rights, citizenship, education, et cetera we claim that they are not part of this country and that they have done nothing to deserve such privileges. If history has taught us anything it is that we must constantly question our laws, their logic, and effectiveness and make the needed changes.

swerdna

December 20, 2009 - 10:06 pm EST

I've actually posted many times in the past that employers are to blame, however you're having a little trouble staying on task here. The subject is illegals attending community colleges, not why they're here or how our businesses exploit them.

When you say "Furthermore, you are quite redundant, as well as narrow-minded, in placing the blame solely on undocumented workers" you've proven you're not worth further keystrokes. Hurling insults simply means you have nothing to refute my points. Bottom line, no matter who hires them or why they're here or what they come here for, they come here ILLEGALLY and do so knowing they are breaking the law. They are sucking our country dry as they get far more than they contribute, and people like you who support them disgust those of us who are hard-working, HONEST, and LAW-ABIDING CITIZENS.

"I-L-L-E-G-A-L" Look up the definition and learn what it means!

....

December 20, 2009 - 11:38 pm EST

I understand what the subject is, I was simply responding to comments about how "they drain our system" and "don't deserve to be here" that I disagree with. I did not intend to insult you personally, but your view on this subject is narrow-minded in that your focus is on the sole fact that it is illegal, without considering any other aspects of the broader problem. I do not condone illegal activities, however I do advocate examining laws that are futile, inhumane, and costly (the "virtual fence" on the Mexican border is estimated to cost taxpayers $7 billion) and making changes where necessary. Let us not forget that it was also I-L-L-E-G-A-L (as you so eloquently put it) for blacks and whites to attend the same school or for women to vote, but those laws were challenged and ultimately done away with.

borderraven

December 20, 2009 - 3:47 pm EST

There is no such thing as an "undocumented immigrant". Immigrants are aliens who agree to obey the laws, and when an alien violates the laws, they are "illegal aliens". The term "illegal aliens" is a proper label for someone in the USA illegally, as stated by the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals, in the case: Martinez v. Regents of U.C. 10/7/08 CA3 http://www.courtinfo.ca.gov/opinions/archive/C054124.PDF

thebeachbum

December 19, 2009 - 9:49 pm EST

If you want an education then I have a great idea. Go home to your original country and apply for a visa. Go ahead and let them apply for college and when the law breakers show up... have ICE arrest them and ship them out. I realize they want a better life, but you are CRIMINALS and I have no respect for you. To all the LEGAL immigrants welcome to the greatest country in the world!

borderraven

December 20, 2009 - 3:39 pm EST

Perhaps it is a problem of venue. Since illegal aliens are the "cancer" of the USA, and granting education to them would secure employment and benefits for administrators and professors, then why not send the professors to teach in Mexico? Aliens in the USA may have human rights, but if they desire civil rights, they need to fight their government, because citizens of the USA are not required or responsible to give away our civil rights, that were gained through revolution and war. So, just pack up your Mexican flags, and go demand your rights from your own government.

derekc

December 20, 2009 - 5:44 pm EST

Don't you just hate the media bias? If you want to know why such a large percentage at the meeting were in favor of illegals just check this out...

http://www.alipac.us/ftopicp-995677.html#995677

They were given preferential treatment by the people in charge.

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