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NEWS

Another vote possible on pool project

Wednesday, December 9, 2009
(Updated Thursday, December 10 - 5:15 am)

GREENSBORO — Voters might get a second chance to consider a proposed aquatics center.

Some City Council members are considering putting a bond referendum on the ballot in 2010, asking voters to pay an additional $6.8 million to build a swim center at the Greensboro Coliseum.

Voters approved $12 million for pool construction and design as part of a 2008 parks and recreation bond. But the cost of a revenue-generating, regional-competition pool complex is more like $18.8 million, city staff members say.

Tourism officials suggest covering the funding gap with hotel tax revenue. But some council members said the issue should be put back to city voters.

“It is the people’s money, so why not just put it on the bond referendum?” Councilman Danny Thompson said. “We’ll just give it to the people to vote.”

It’s unclear whether enough council members support the idea to get a referendum on the ballot in 2010, and five supporters would be needed. At least one council member said he wants to consider all the implications of the idea before making a decision on whether to support it.

But the bond idea could be raised when the City Council discusses the pool Dec. 15. The issue also could be discussed at a retreat Friday and Saturday.

As its first act of business after being sworn in Dec. 1, the newly elected council decided to reconsider the previous council’s plan for the $18.8 million, three-pool complex at the Greensboro Coliseum.

Some residents have applauded that decision, arguing that the city had not been open about the details of the plan or the costs associated with it.

Putting the issue back to the voters would be a chance to test whether the residents really want the project, council members said.

“It seems to me it restores their trust in us,” Councilwoman Trudy Wade said. “It makes it fair.”

If such a referendum was approved, it would mean that the council could have property taxpayers pay for the difference in the pool complex costs.

Under the current financing proposal, the $6.8 million funding gap would be paid by hotel revenue tax — money collected from visitors to the city when they rent a room.

A portion of the hotel revenue must be spent on coliseum projects. An estimated $1.6 million of that tax revenue will be available in 2013, which would start paying off the aquatics center debt if the City Council pursues that option.

Councilman Robbie Perkins argued that using the hotel revenue allows the residents to get a first-class center for the cost — $12 million — of a community pool.

He fears putting the pool on a second ballot would kill the project.

“It is a great strategy for someone who doesn’t believe in the project and wants to kill it,” Perkins said. “If I were trying to kill a project, it would be one of the ways I would do it. It’s pretty slick.”

But proponents of the second bond referendum say putting it on the ballot doesn’t mean the extra expense has to be paid with property tax money.

Slowing the process could give the city time to recruit corporate or nonprofit partners to help shoulder the costs.

Contact Amanda Lehmert at 373-7075 or amanda.lehmert@news-record.com

Accompanying Photos

Comments

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MGDougherty

December 8, 2009 - 6:39 pm EST

Great idea - let the voters decide. How could it be otherwise? We get to approve the $12 million, but not the $6.8 million? If city government and the swim center backers want to be transparent and above board, I see no other way. Personally, I will vote no. In our business, if you ask for a project budget and came back 57% over budget, you would be laughed out of the room.

uncwgm

December 8, 2009 - 7:13 pm EST

Exactly, the numbers have drastically changed and since we the taxpayers actually foot (as opposed to the small number that will use or take in revenue for the facility) this seems to be the responsible thing to do.

uncwgm

December 8, 2009 - 7:15 pm EST

Exactly, the numbers have drastically changed and since we the taxpayers actually foot the bill (as opposed to the small number of special interests that will use or make money from the the facility) this seems to be the responsible thing to do.

Mick

December 8, 2009 - 7:44 pm EST

What happens if it passes and the new bid is 25 million or it doesnt and the new bid for a smaller facility is 13 or 14 million? Who are "some council members"?

Maybe Brandon's dream world does exist :)

.

Panacea

December 8, 2009 - 8:49 pm EST

We already have a bid. 18 million is the cap. Build it for less, not more. It was bad enough when the Pentagon built $600 hammers, but for a local swim center to go over budget is inexcusable.

I'd prefer to see the whole thing go up for referendum on a stand alone issue, up or down yes or no vote.

Simply having a bond to cover the shortfall doesn't address what to do if that second bond issue fails.

nclawkid

December 8, 2009 - 11:02 pm EST

Aren't there low/no interest bonds through the ARRA (better known as the stimulus) that could be used to fill the gap?

Mick, I understand what you're trying to say. What if voters approve a new bond to fill the existing gap, but by that time the cost of the project increases even more because the construction and materials markets have time to improve. The city would be in the exact same position.

Mick

December 8, 2009 - 9:05 pm EST

I doubt that bid is good until May or November of 2010. Might be I guess.

Amanda Lehmert

December 8, 2009 - 11:15 pm EST

Hi Mick,

The bid is good until Dec. 20. Even if the city council agrees to continue with the current financing method on Dec. 15, they will need to get an extension on the bid until the county commissioners agree to it at their first meeting in January.

Panacea

December 9, 2009 - 11:23 am EST

Just curious . . .

Why do the county commissioners have to approve it?

Mick

December 9, 2009 - 11:56 am EST

They control the fate of the hotel tax .... I think

Panacea

December 9, 2009 - 2:17 pm EST

So the hotel tax is a county tax? Interesting . . . .

Mick

December 9, 2009 - 4:32 pm EST

But it is administered by the CVB .... again .... I think.

Amanda Lehmert

December 9, 2009 - 5:52 pm EST

I don't know who collects the tax. But it goes to the tourism board -- part to be used at the coliseum. And in that case the city, tourism board and county commissioners need to agree upon how some of it is used.

Beachwalk

December 8, 2009 - 9:41 pm EST

The new bond referendum should be called the Coliseum Complex Expansion Bond. If the pool is going to be built on the coliseum grounds, then this would be the truthful way to present it. It certainately isn't a Parks and Rec. expansion.

DonMoore

December 9, 2009 - 8:43 am EST

That's absolutely right. People voted for a Parks and Recreation Bond, not another coliseum expansion.

If the coliseum thinks it can hit one out of the park with a pool, then say so. Then we will remind them of all the events that filled the 23,000 seats in the coliseum. How many times is that happened recently (or since it was expanded)?

jfk3

December 9, 2009 - 10:21 am EST

Don,

Do you not think that the coliseum is a valuable city asset?

I just don't understand all the negativity here. Whether you like pools or not, Greensboro will benefit from this facility in many ways... not just by having a couple regional meets here every year. There are discussions about a having a program that teaches public school students to swim by a certain age. Talk about a major community benefit...

I don't see all you angry "taxpayer revolt" types complaining about our other parks that cost a ton to keep up but don't produce revenue. How about the library system which has essentially become a place to troll the internet? Or our bus system that runs a big deficit despite serving a very small demographic?

I consider myself a very fiscally conservative person, but unfortunately my bretheren in this respect are too short-sighted. Some programs/facilities that run deficits are worth it to improve the fabric of our community. Its impossible to quantify the economic impact of the coliseum and/or a acquatic center, but as one of the few national landmarks in our struggling community, I find it invaluable towards bringing in outside dollars and potential new jobs.

Panacea

December 9, 2009 - 11:27 am EST

The library has adult education programs that help people learn how to read. It provides access to reading and viewing materials (including the Internet) to those who cannot afford them. Libraries have always been centers of information, and including the Internet is simply another source of information for modern users. Anyone can use those resources for free, unlike the proposed swim center. Also, the library is funded by the county, not the city.

A lot of the opposition stems from the way the bond issue was approved. If the bond had been a stand alone item and had won approval, I would be far less critical.

Swim boosters want to build this pool in a recession, when the city needs to concentrate on city services. They claim it will bring in all kinds of money, but offer little evidence to support their claim.

The bond approved a swim center run by P&R, not the Coliseum.

The issue of how we will pay for maintenance has yet to be answered.

There are plenty of legitimate reasons to complain.

jfk3

December 9, 2009 - 12:31 pm EST

First of all, the public library is city-run and maintained. The library does good things, but its not a revenue generator. Go in there every day and you'll see hardly anyone in the stacks. They are all trolling the internet. Thats a fact.

As far as programs go, the pool will provide a ton to the community as well.. adult swimming lessons, swim therapy, swimming lessons for the disadvantaged. The pool's calendar will be constantly packed with very productive community activities, yet all anyone wants to talk about is the big regional/national swim meets that we may or may not land.

The same goes for the coliseum. People complain about the coliseum all the time, yet they don't take the time to actually know the facts about it. The truth of the matter is that the coliseum is constantly filled with smaller community events. In fact, the coliseum staff often helps organize and administrate events for the entire city (i.e. - Aggie Fest, Daughtry downtown, etc.). All the misinformation on this whole issue just kills me.

I understand that the project came in over budget, and that stinks. Anyone thats built a house or addition knows that this comes with the construction territory. Whats been lost in the argument, however, is all the money we've saved by doing it now and putting it at the coliseum. We didn't have to purchase the land, and we've got the infrastructure already in place to accomodate groups both big and small. It would be a shame to not go through with it now (letting visitors pay for the overrun), with the likliehood that we'll be right back at square one in a couple years and payinig twice as much.

I understand the frustration with the way the bond was presented, but it passed. As an electorate, its the public's duty to know what they are voting for... period.

Panacea

December 9, 2009 - 2:23 pm EST

I stand corrected on library funding. The library is still free to its users. A pool will not be.

The library provides services to people looking for jobs. While it may be "abused" as "trolling" by some, I think that you don't know nearly enough about the people who use the Internet resources at the library to really judge them.

There are already plenty of pools in Greensboro that are underused. We don't need another one.

This pool is for the competitive swim community, pure and simple. The claims that it can benefit other groups are thin at best as they already have access to other pools in the area. The pool is not going to be built for recreational swimming or for rehabilitation purposes. It is being built for swim meets.

This pool will not serve enough of a purpose to justify its expenses.

If my house project came in over budget, then I alone am responsible for the bill. I can't go to the county and say "bail me out." I either cough up the cash myself, or I do without. Why should the city build a pool that costs more than it can afford when I can't put more into my house than I can afford?

I agree that voters should know what they are voting for. That does not excuse the behavior of those who took advantage of P&R by slipping a project onto their bond knowing full well most people would miss the significance of it.

boblowe

December 9, 2009 - 2:43 pm EST

Name one pool in Greensboro that is underused.

Panacea

December 9, 2009 - 7:36 pm EST

The WYCA.

jfk3

December 9, 2009 - 2:52 pm EST

panacea -- the pool is not being built purely as a competitive swim center. there are already pools available for that demographic. its being built for the community at-large... a community that hasn't built a pool since 1976-77 @ grimsley and smith. we are the largest city in NC without such a facility.

i don't know why you are such a skeptic. pool proponents have outlined their intentions to make this a community center from the beginning. it will be a place where students, adults, and the elderly alike can learn to swim and enjoy recreation/therapy.

that being said, it will also be a place where national/regional competitions will come and bring valuable revenue to our community. think wrangler tournament... only in the water. swimming isn't as visible as other sports, but its supporters are equally passionate.

Panacea

December 9, 2009 - 7:38 pm EST

So you think the community at large needs a diving pool? A pool built to competition standards?

This is a swim center for competition, even Mick admits that. He just believes it has additional uses that would pay for its construction.

Mick

December 11, 2009 - 8:57 am EST

You can "rec" in a competitive pool but you cant compete in a "rec" pool.

There is more to this than the diving well. Kids wont be able to jump off starting blocks or time themselves with the scoreboard either.

oh good grief

December 9, 2009 - 7:37 pm EST

"Also, the library is funded by the county, not the city."

Panacea, the libraries are Greensboro CITY libraries. Guilford County does contribute to the libraries so that County residents are able to use them without each person paying a fee to do so.

However, there is interesting information about Greensboro Libraries found on the official website of the City of Greensboro (www.greensboro-nc.gov).

On November 25, 2009, the (new) City Manager (Mr. Young) authored a memorandum to the Mayor and Members of Council.

There is (ample) evidence in the memorandum that other (County and State) governmental agencies are "tightening their belts."

Beginning on Page 3 of the PDF document it states, regarding County Contribution for Libraries:

"For FY 09-10 Guilford County REDUCED (bolded in memo, I capitalized) its prior year contribution of $2,122,300 by $350,000. Their contribution for FY 09-10 is $1,722.300."

"I do suspect that Greensboro Public Libraries (GPL) could very well see annother reduction FY 10-11 either similiar or even greater to the County contribution."

"For FY 10-11, GPL will incur an additional 3% reduction in State Aid due to local funding reducton over the past three years."

Also in the same memo it is mentioned that so long as the County contributes 4% to the cost of City Libraries the City Libraries cannot charge County residents a fee to use the City Libraries.

And yet, while other Governmental agencies are cutting costs/reducing funding, we are supposed to be thrilled with a (foreseeable) boondoggle swimming pool at the Coliseum Complex.

Mick

December 9, 2009 - 7:56 pm EST

The main diff would be the economic impact of the pool. I have no issues with libraries.

Beachwalk

December 9, 2009 - 8:15 pm EST

Once again Mick, the so called "economic impact" of the pool is no guarantee. There can always be another city who can build a bigger, better, deeper, warmer, cooler pool. What guarantees Greensboro will always get the competitions, after the tax payers have spent $18+ million?
A much better investment would be to invest in small business.

Mick

December 9, 2009 - 9:14 pm EST

Please elaborate.

luvdowntowngso

December 8, 2009 - 10:45 pm EST

Why is the city council calling for a second bond referendum? Does anyone understand that the additional cost of the swim center ($6.8 million) is to come from the hotel/motel tax NOT the taxpayers of Greensboro? For you stupid people, the hotel/motel tax is paid by people who come to our city, stay in our hotels and attend events here....a process that would only be enriched by a swim center. The only reason Kinght and Thompson want a second vote is because they want the whole idea of a swim center to fail! But, what if it passes? Then the taxpayers are screwed and will have to foot the bill. Why not let the people that visit our city foot the bill? Why is this so hard to understand?

Brandon Burgess

December 9, 2009 - 8:08 am EST

Folks this is exactly the kind of behavior I have been talking about. Luvdowntowngso calls people stupid because they understand that the City of Greensboro had to loan the hotel/motel tax fund $250,000 this year. Where did that $250,000 come from Luv? The stupid people of Greensboro also understand that any money we take away from the hotel/motel tax fund means less money to maintain our Coliseum with. But people like Luvdowntown don't care if our Coliseum falls into disrepair as long as they get that pool. Remember, one of the main points they make about building this pool is that "we are basketball town, let's be swim meet town to". If we allow our Coliseum to go downhill, we will no longer be basketball town.

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