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Forsyth suit could affect prayers in Guilford

Thursday, November 12, 2009
(Updated Friday, November 13 - 6:06 am)

GREENSBORO — If a federal judge rules against sectarian prayer during public meetings in Forsyth County, that opinion could provide the basis for a challenge to similar prayer in Guilford County.

Commissioners in Guilford and Forsyth counties regularly allow prayer before public meetings, and they often reference Christianity more than other religions.

“The government can’t take sides in religious matters,” said Jennifer Rudinger, director of the American Civil Liberties Union of North Carolina.

The ACLU is backing a lawsuit from two Forsyth County residents who accuse the county of allowing sectarian prayer, which has been ruled against in higher courts but not challenged locally.

Magistrate Judge P. Trevor Sharp said this week in a recommendation to the U.S. District Court for the Middle District of North Carolina that mentions of Jesus, Jesus Christ and Christ during invocations were sectarian and should not be allowed. Sharp wrote that his recommendation was bound by judgments by the Supreme Court and U.S. Court of Appeals against sectarian prayer in public meetings.

Quoting scripture during prayer is also considered sectarian, according to case law. Courts have ruled that using the words Lord or God during invocations is not considered sectarian.

Sectarian mentions are common during invocations in Guilford County Board of Commissioners meetings. “We just need to find a way to keep prayer in our meetings and by any means necessary,” Chairman Melvin “Skip” Alston said. “We need to continue to have prayer.”

The Forsyth County case could affect any future lawsuit against Guilford County. Sharp’s recommendation will go to Chief District Court Judge James A. Beaty Jr.

Prayer isn’t being challenged, Rudinger said, but sectarian prayer is. “The U.S. Supreme Court rules that invocations which open government meetings are OK as long as the invocation itself is nonsectarian,” she said.

There are no similar suits against the Guilford County Board of Commissioners. Prayer before meetings usually comes from invited religious leaders throughout the county. Those pastors primarily represent Christian denominations and sometimes include quotes from scripture. A rabbi led the invocation Oct. 1.

“We have had a diverse group of religious leaders from different faiths offer these prayers,” Guilford County attorney Mark Payne said. “Our practice is within the law and representative of our community.”

Greensboro City Council meetings begin with a moment of silence but no spoken prayer. In 2007, the High Point City Council set a policy on invocations asking that prayers not include sectarian references.

“As long as we don’t do it up there on the dais in the meeting, we can pray in Jesus’ name,” High Point Mayor Becky Smothers said.

Some council members gather before meetings to pray, she said. “I personally feel that it’s really important to ask for God’s help,” she said.

Meanwhile, the district court that covers Guilford and 23 other counties in the state will review the Forsyth County case.

And Guilford County commissioners will keep on praying. “Unless the law says we can’t, we will,” Alston said. “As long as we can, we will.”

Contact Gerald Witt at 373-7008 or gerald.witt@news-record.com

Accompanying Photos

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Comments

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CitizenK

November 12, 2009 - 7:49 am EST

So, We, the People, are cowering because the moronic ACLU is suing? Let them win and it will prove what Obama said; We are no longer a Christian nation. When are the Christians, who are the majority, going to stand up against the ACLU, the state run media and the liberal judges who legislate from the bench? Would they be suing if they were praying to allah? I think not! Screw all this politically correct BS!

Beachwalk

November 12, 2009 - 8:56 am EST

Christian prayers were good enough for our founding fathers, it should be allow now.

dcolin

November 12, 2009 - 12:26 pm EST

"Christian prayers were good enough for our founding fathers, it should be allow now."

So was slavery

VALawyer

November 12, 2009 - 9:08 am EST

The U.S. was never a christian nation. People like to spread that myth to make themselves feel better. The constitution clearly says the gov't shall not establish a religion. People who say they love and respect the constitution really don't. The founding fathers knew what they were doing when they wanted to keep gov't out of religion and vice versa. Most Americans hate the constitution because they really don't understand it. If you ask an American the general question whether they support the constitution they will answer "yes." But if you start asking them about specific provisions that they are too ignorant to know about then you'll find they actually don't like the constitution. There are fascist people in this country who think the police should be able to stop and search whoever they want for whatever reason they want. There are people who jump to conclusions and think a person is guilty of crime so they shouldn't have access to a lawyer.

I assume, CitizenK, you would rather live in Saudia Arabia where they have a religious gov't and doesn't strive to be neutral like how our founding fathers wanted it? It's the two citizens who sue who may win, not the ACLU. But assuming those folks win that will be a minor victory. Those are some brave people because it would be very easy for them to go along with the rest of Forsyth County who are christians and not challenge the prayer. I'm sure they're getting death threats from these godly people for having the audacity to stand-up for the constitution. Christians dominate everything in this country but they like to pretend like they're an oppressed minority.

They should open each meeting with a muslim prayer! LOL, then I'm sure all the christians will be screaming to keep religion out of gov't and that the gov't should be neutral.

MR.SOFTBALL27

November 12, 2009 - 9:57 am EST

Hey VaLawyer why don't you shut up, if you don't like this country so much why don't you take your butt to Saudia Arabia. You are just like the rest of these stupid big Libs!!!!!

d_random

November 12, 2009 - 10:13 am EST

Agree with VALawyer!

VALawyer

November 12, 2009 - 10:20 am EST

I love this country. It's people like you Mr.Softball, who hate America and want to have a a religious and fascist government. I was criticizing Saudi Arabia, not praising it. You're a typical illiterate right-winger who hates the principles of our constitution. You're the type of person who would root America to be attacked by terrorists again in the hope that it would make Obama look bad!

ProudAtheist

November 12, 2009 - 10:25 am EST

*crowd chanting* V-A! V-A! V-A!

MR.SOFTBALL27

November 12, 2009 - 10:46 am EST

No stupid VALawyer it is idiots like you that tear this country apart, You just want everything your way just like Obama, I don't wish any terrorists attacks anywhere thank you, i don't stoop down too your level you ole left-winger, You are such a joke, why don't you just shut up, You are not a true AMERICAN!!! I love this country and i support our troops and think about them everyday, you are just so hard headed just like all of the rest of you liberals nutt cases!!!

VALawyer

November 12, 2009 - 1:34 pm EST

No stupid Mr.SOFTBALL27 it is idiots like you that tear this country apart, You just want everything your way just like Bush. You are such a joke, why don't you just shut up, You are not a true AMERICAN!!! I love this country and i support our troops and think about them everyday, you are just so hard headed just like all of the rest of you right-winger nutt cases!!!

MR.SOFTBALL27

November 12, 2009 - 2:04 pm EST

I would vote for Bush today if I could, at least is not fake!!!

VALawyer

November 12, 2009 - 2:08 pm EST

LOL, that's all you can come back with? I was expecting you to at least call me a name like "dumb-@ss liberal" or "Obamabot" Ya'll aren't even trying anymore! :-D

MR.SOFTBALL27

November 12, 2009 - 2:20 pm EST

No we all ready know that.

VALawyer

November 12, 2009 - 2:21 pm EST

Ah, that's better!

ProudAtheist

November 12, 2009 - 2:43 pm EST

now hold on a second, mr. liberal valawyerguy... this country NEEDS a christian theocracy! how else can we go back to the days of the spanish inquisition?

CitizenK

November 12, 2009 - 10:41 am EST

Good Lord, you're an idiot. You profess to know exactly what everyone is feeling and thinking and who's getting death threats from "the Godly Goon squad". Do you even listen to yourself? Get over your utopian ideals and ground yourself in reality. WTF ever happened to Live and Let Live? One person gets "offended" because someone prays. Guess what, you and your PC espousing crowd DON'T HAVE THE RIGHT TO BE OFFENDED! If you don't like it, shove it! BTW, our founding fathers wrote; Freedom Of Religon. They didn't write Freedom FROM Religon.

VALawyer

November 12, 2009 - 1:41 pm EST

They founding fathers did write freedom from religion when they wrote "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof..." That means our gov't should be neutral. CitizenK, You make yourself look so unintelligent when your response is to tell me to"shove-it!" Give me a straight, intelligent, honest answer to this question without the name calling: would you have been fine if the county commissioners had opened each meeting with a Muslim prayer? And why or why not?

Beachwalk

November 12, 2009 - 11:04 am EST

VALawyer, you are either just plan ignorant or you are trying to rewrite history to fit you own liberal agenda. Either way you are just simply wrong. It is because this is a Christian nation that we are allowed to have freedom of religion. The Christian Faith says you can't force it on anyone, it is a gift and has to be freely accepted. But saying a prayer before a council meeting or before a football game is not forcing anyone to participate or accept that belief. If you and your liberal friends continue to take God out of this country, then that will only make way for "Alla". If that happens you will not have the option of freedom of religion and you will also understand how Christianity was the bases for freedom of religion. By the way, freedom of religion does NOT mean freedom FROM religion.

James Madison
"Religion is the basis and Foundation of Government." June 20, 1785
“We have staked the whole future of American civilization, not upon the power of government, far from it. We’ve staked the future of all our political institutions upon our capacity…to sustain ourselves according to the Ten Commandments of God.” [1778 to the General Assembly of the State of Virginia]

John Adams
The general principles on which the fathers achieved independence were. . . . the general principles of Christianity. . . . I will avow that I then believed, and now believe, that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and attributes of God; and that those principles of liberty are as unalterable as human nature. (taken from a letter to Thomas Jefferson on June 28, 1813)

I'll take the words of our founding fathers over yours any and everyday, thank you,

wscbd

November 12, 2009 - 11:52 am EST

Not a Christian nation. It isn't. No matter how many times you say otherwise, it will not change the fact that this nation is not, nor has ever been, a Christian nation. Our gov't is without religion; it's the way the whole thing was planned. As I've already stated - If you want to live in a land where the gov't favors specific religions, then go to Saudi Arabia or Iran. Your views are out of place in a nation founded on the ideals of freedom and liberty. We have freedom of all religions, not freedom of ONE religion. If the gov't shows preference toward one religion over others, then adherents to other religions are being oppressed. Get over yourselves and stop killing America.

stenhard

November 12, 2009 - 12:39 pm EST

You'll no doubt recognize these words by John Adams as well:

"We should begin by setting conscience free. When all men of all religions ... shall enjoy equal liberty, property, and an equal chance for honors and power ... we may expect that improvements will be made in the human character and the state of society."

Or Madison's words:

"Every new and successful example, therefore, of a perfect separation between the ecclesiastical and civil matters, is of importance; and I have no doubt that every new example will succeed, as every past one has done, in showing that religion and Government will both exist in greater purity the less they are mixed together "

dcolin

November 12, 2009 - 12:22 pm EST

"Would they be suing if they were praying to allah? "

Of course they would

ProudAtheist

November 12, 2009 - 10:08 am EST

Our founding fathers were incredibly secular, Thomas Jefferson even authored a version of the bible which removed all references of Jesus' divinity. But, don't take the word of a godless heathen atheist for it. Go and do a little homework. Some that involves actual history books, not mythologies penned by a tribe of nomadic bronze-age shepherds.

Good job, VALawyer.

MR.SOFTBALL27

November 12, 2009 - 11:20 am EST

You might be as stupid as ole VALawyer, wait you are!!!!!!!! HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

ProudAtheist

November 12, 2009 - 2:57 pm EST

The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully.

sounds like a real winner. and you, sir, behave like an eight-year old.

Beachwalk

November 12, 2009 - 11:07 am EST

Thomas Jefferson is only one person.
Go back and read some of the writings from 29 of the 56 signers of the Declaration of Independence who had Christian seminary degrees. I've done my homework, I have read more than just Thomas Jefferson.

tbench

November 12, 2009 - 10:21 am EST

Right on brother softball this country was founded on christian belief's I don't recall any muslims in that group of
founding fathers. As you know lawyers are known to spew garbage.

religious liberty

November 12, 2009 - 2:06 pm EST

Many (35 out of 55) of the founding fathers were lawyers. I guess that's why you consider the US constitution garbage.

wscbd

November 12, 2009 - 10:47 am EST

This has nothing to do with people being offended by prayer. It's about gov't bodies A) sanctioning religious institutions, and B) favoring a specific religious institution over others. This is expressly prohibited by the First Amendment. Try reading it sometime. You might realize that you don't fit in with our ideals and would be more at home in places like Iran and Saudi Arabia. Our founders were not Christians and would not support Christianity or ANY religion co-opting gov't in this manner.

CitizenK

November 12, 2009 - 11:16 am EST

Oh BS! It has everything to do with someone being offended by prayer. And none of our Founding Fathers were Christian??? Ok...right. Prayer was fine for 200+ years. Now it's not because some lawyers figured out they could use the law to sue in order to force others, the majority, to bend to their, the minority's, will. Does it concern anyone that politicians, now a day, are lawyers? Take a good look around... the main reason for this nation's woes are because of the ACLU, and the like, forcing God out of every institution that may, or may not be, considered "a government entity". Belief in God, has been replaced by moral relativism, which is contradictory in nature, and MTV style principals. The nation is morally bankrupt and will eventually fall, as was foretold by or founding fathers! Our government stands only on the morality of the people

Beachwalk

November 12, 2009 - 11:12 am EST

1st Ammendment
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

Where does it say anything about favoring a specific religion? You are rewriting history.
Saying a prayer at a council meeting does not "establish" a religion. No one is forcing anyone to participate or forcing anyone to believe the same way.

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