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Magistrate says prayer violates First Amendment

Monday, November 9, 2009
(Updated Tuesday, November 10 - 6:46 am)

WINSTON-SALEM (AP) — A federal magistrate recommended Monday that the use of prayer to open a board of commissioners meeting in North Carolina violates the First Amendment.

Magistrate Trevor Sharp issued the recommendation on the use of sectarian invocations to open the Forsyth County Board of Commissioners meetings.

The ruling noted that the prayers frequently referred to Jesus or Jesus Christ, and said that such prayers "display a preference for Christianity over other religions by the government."

A lawsuit filed by the American Civil Liberties Union of North Carolina on behalf of Forsyth County residents Janet Joyner and Constance Lynn Blackmon in March 2007 objected to the use of prayer at the meetings. Joyner and Constance also are members of the Winston-Salem Chapter of Americans United for Separation of Church and State, a religious liberty watchdog group based in Washington, D.C., that helped with the case. The magistrate's recommendation carries no legal weight, other than offering guidance to the federal judge who will handle the case.

The county commission had argued that their policy of inviting outside clergy to deliver invocations meant it was staying neutral with regard to prayers. But the ACLU and Americans United argued that any opening prayer must be nonsectarian for the government to be truly neutral.

Attorney Mike Johnson, who represents the county commission, said he believes the recommendation is based on incorrect analysis.

"We respectively disagree with some of the key findings of the recommendation, and we strongly believe it should be modified by the district judge," Johnson said.

David N. Khan, legal director for Americans United, said the magistrate judge's finding is on target.

"The board of commissioners is elected to do the public's business, not meddle in religious matters," he said. "The Constitution gives government officials no authority whatsoever to prefer one faith over others."

Sharp's recommendation will now go before a federal district judge, who will make a final ruling.

Johnson said the county commission plans to release a supplemental brief arguing Sharp's recommendation. The ACLU will then have 10 days to respond.

Messages left at the homes of Joyner and Blackmon were not immediately returned.

Comments

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voteformccain

November 9, 2009 - 4:16 pm EST

Another moron has opened their mouth!

rooster8786

November 9, 2009 - 4:24 pm EST

Federal judges have lifetime appointments so they can come up with all kinds of STUPID decisions. Magistrate Sharp better pray to whatever diety they pray too because I don't believe Federal Magistrates enjoy the same privilege and Mag. Sharp needs to go!!!!

Jarhead

November 9, 2009 - 4:33 pm EST

This is a shame and disgrace. If you were in the military and got shot I bet you would pray. I sure did thank God. But I doubt you were ever in such .

kikablue

November 9, 2009 - 6:35 pm EST

You are so right, that's what is wrong with America today. Stupid people like them 2 women stoping prayer for thousands, just goes to show the DEVIL is alive and working his evil here on earth full speed. But I have news for those two fools, they can not stop prayer, no one can stop silent prayer.God hears you all the time. AMEN!

GenghisKeef

November 9, 2009 - 4:35 pm EST

Nothing can stop someone from praying. Pray all you wish. There is no Biblical requirement that a prayer be out loud. To whom, or for whom do you pray? God will hear your prayer, whether it isthe 'show' prayer before a meeting, or silently from you to God. Jesus said 'go to a closet and pray'. This magistrate may be a Godly man, as far as any of you know. I don't think insulting the magistrate demonstrates the love required of Christians, as we are to love our enemies.

Oona

November 9, 2009 - 4:41 pm EST

Why are we still discussing this in 2009? Read the first ammendment of our constitution. Government establishments are not the place to recite prayers. You may pray in church- you may pray in private school (as i did) you may pray in your own private business-you may pray in your heart and home 24/ 7. This is the United States and as far as I know our government does not mandate a specific dogma. It is a waste of time and resources to run this through the court system. Is there any other region in the country still rehashing this?

kikablue

November 9, 2009 - 6:40 pm EST

Well sorry Oona, but Government needs all the prayers they can get, Good LORD, just look around you at all the destruction of Life and Government that's happenening. Are you BLIND?

Oona

November 9, 2009 - 6:55 pm EST

i happily see a lot more than destruction when i look around....

dadaddy

November 9, 2009 - 5:05 pm EST

There is only one GOD, all else is faulse. This guy, like most over paid underworked officials, have made his choice, lets not be suprised or discouraged. GOD said that this would be the case.

lilbean

November 9, 2009 - 5:12 pm EST

eve carson, shot in the side of the head.8 retired folks laying in their beds shot dead. 37 college kids murdered at virginia tech. 13 murdered at ft.hood. columbine. family murder suicides. rapes. vicious home invasions. school kids killing each other in the streets, total sexual immorality. teenagers gangraping little girls.
the more you push for a godless government, the more godless your society gets. enjoy and don't forget to lock your doors tonite. idiots.

kikablue

November 9, 2009 - 6:42 pm EST

Thank you, someone else with common sense. Bless you for your comment.

nanamamaedge

November 9, 2009 - 6:00 pm EST

I am "One Very Proud Mama" of two Son's that decided to do their parts, in keeping this country of ours safe.. My Husband served 20 years, and his Dad, died in Vietnam... We got ourselves in trouble when we allowed an old
woman, and her Son, to take God out of our Schools, and we will suffer for this for the rest of the days that earth exist..
One Nation, Under God, with liberty and justice for all...... DUH!!!! Nothing says, One Nation under, any other name..
If you don't like to have this One Nation Under GOD... Then go back to where you came from.. We are not going to
give up what little freedom we have for people that do not consider themselves as Americans.. Not African Americans,
Not Indian Americans, Not Spanish Americans, and ETC.. and ETC>..BUT JUST REAL AMERICANS.. ONE NATION
UNDER GOD, WITH LIBERTY AND JUSTICE FOR ALL.. When the soldiers are fighting a war, they don't care what color the person is, beside them.. They just want to make sure that they are both fighting for the right side.. Let's get
a grip, and do something for someone in need, in the time you waste, fighting this.. Nanamamaedge

Oona

November 9, 2009 - 6:16 pm EST

why would we want or need government to mandate religion - we pray freely and in our privately chosen places of worship - i believe we should be setting the example - not repeating mistakes

Beachwalk

November 9, 2009 - 11:03 pm EST

Freedom of religion does not mean Freedom FROM religion.

This nation was founded as a Christian Nation, on Christian priciples. Almost half of the signers of the Declaration (24 of 56) held what today would be considered seminary or Bible school degrees. Clearly, for many Founders, religious issues were an important motivation behind their separation from Great Britain; but that motivation is largely ignored today. http://www.wallbuilders.com/libissuesarticles.asp?id=100

Countless quotes from our founding fathers proves this nation was founded as a Christian Nation.

eduguytoo

November 10, 2009 - 12:37 am EST

We are a nation largely composed of Christians, but we are not a "Christian Nation." I think those things are different. I'm a Christian, but I find things that some other Christians do and say repugnant. I'd rather not have to be subjected to them. I definitely do not want to be subjected to other proclaimed "faiths" that espouse hatred, intolerance, sorcery, prejudice, genocide, polygamy....shall I go on? If we push this thing hard enough, then we will have to allow our public-space Christian prayers to be punctuated with every Tom, Dick and Harry "religion" that can be drummed up in a Google search. Are you prepared for that? Will you support that "freedom of religion"? If not, we have to accept the practice of our faiths where they truly are free for us to do so.

djvampiresseyes

November 9, 2009 - 6:51 pm EST

All I can say about this is that it is dumb for the magistrate to say that prayer is a violation of the first amendment when it in itself is a freedom of speech/religion is it not. If you are going to attack something as sturdy as prayer dont bring the amendments into it because then you make yourself look stupid.

blackstream

November 9, 2009 - 7:19 pm EST

Oona, by your own admission, everyone has the right to pray, anywhere, anytime. Having said that, then these folks have the right to start the meeting with prayer if they so choose. According to the Constitution of the United States, the Majority rules. If there is a minority group on the board that feels offended by this, then they do not belong since they are not upholding the Constitution. Furthermore, it's about time we quit worrying about offending every idiot that needs an excuse. Seperation of Church and State did not mean that the State (or any government entity) did not have the right to prayer at government functions. It meant that the Government had no right to control the church, and vise versa. When idiots like yourself bring up such arguments, it just goes to show how ignorant people can truly be. If you don't like it, that's great. I really don't care about your feelings. If you are offended by the way things are done, the problem is really yours.

countryboy

November 9, 2009 - 7:59 pm EST

blackstream...the constitution does not state the "majority rules". We are not a democracy...we are a representational republic with somewhat democratically elected representatives. And will you still feel this way when Muslims rule America and demand prayer to Allah at government meetings. And "seperation of church and state" was an idea of Thomas Jefferson that he could not get into the constitution. As a Christian, I agree with many of these comments about private prayer...and being a public example. This does not require government intervention. But as an American, I do not believe public prayer violates the establishment clause of the constitution. What is forbidden is the government establishment of an official state church.

pennyo

November 9, 2009 - 7:36 pm EST

i don't understand, doesn't not letting the one pray that wants to pray, violate thier amendment, if the ones who does not want to pray, well don't, but the ones that do, ought to have that right, you knock that right out for us for a hand full of people, that what this country was based on, is prayer, i guess you forgot since you want to give this country to the devil, you see what no prayer is doing to it now, don't you,course you don't, or you wouldn't be having this discussion, you should ask the regular people what they want, not the money hungry people like some of the government, so worried what such and such thinks, that they lose their own brains.

jeffjet

November 9, 2009 - 7:52 pm EST

Anyone that listens to the diatribe about Christianity not being at the core of the foundation of our nation needs to go and look for yourselves. Please, please, please research and read the literature that is out there and make sure you read the books and papers that claim our nation is not from a Christian foundation. Especially go read the book written by two Cornell University professors regarding this subject. Having said this, here's a few quotes I found that you may want to read if you have an open mind about this subject; otherwise you can keep your head in a hole in the ground.

Suppose a nation in some distant region should take the Bible for their only law book and every member should regulate his conduct by the precepts there exhibited. . . . What a Eutopia – what a Paradise would this region be!5
I have examined all religions, and the result is that the Bible is the best book in the world.6
John Adams

In the chain of human events, the birthday of the nation is indissolubly linked with the birthday of the Savior. The Declaration of Independence laid the cornerstone of human government upon the first precepts of Christianity.9
John Quincy Adams

Let us enter on this important business under the idea that we are Christians on whom the eyes of the world are now turned… [L]et us earnestly call and beseech Him, for Christ’s sake, to preside in our councils. . . . We can only depend on the all powerful influence of the Spirit of God, Whose Divine aid and assistance it becomes us as a Christian people most devoutly to implore. Therefore I move that some minister of the Gospel be requested to attend this Congress every morning . . . in order to open the meeting with prayer.18

Elias Boudinot

The great, vital, and conservative element in our system is the belief of our people in the pure doctrines and the divine truths of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.25

Congress, 1854

You may recognize these sources and names. I'll gladly give the sources of where these came from. Finally, please pray to your god that you believe in if you want to or not, that our nation would not follow Christian principles. I promise my prayer for you and others like yourselves, the Lord makes an appearance to you in your heart and follows you and shows Himself to you. Then you can decide for yourselves what you want to do. Oh yeah, I forgot one other thing; the book by the two Cornell professors; they stated they weren't footnoting any of their writings. You tell me would any teacher allow a paper without citing resources? I gave you a few things to think about.....think about this and what you may be desiring.

balance

November 9, 2009 - 8:39 pm EST

If you don't trust the government to legislate healthcare, how can you trust the government to legislate religion? Personally, I think all churches other than Free will Baptist should be banned by law. We should all pray, and those who don't should be put in jail.

eduguytoo

November 9, 2009 - 11:57 pm EST

I am a Christian, but I have to support the decision. I have always felt the same way about prayer introduced into my children's public schools. Simply put, if prayers/religious doctrine that I think are fine are allowable, then a whole Pandora's box of things I don't agree with must also be allowed if someone pushes for it. I would not be too keen on witches and warlocks convening a coven (or whatever it's called) to start off a city council meeting. Our system supports equal treatment, and I'd rather that equal treatment mean exclusion. Our homes, our places of worship, the books and entertainment our families support and many other things should be ample opportunity to exercise religious practices on terms that truly are FREEDOM OF RELIGION. Like it or not, sometimes it's probably for the best if we can also experience FREEDOM FROM RELIGION. If we are not willing to tolerate every other possible belief system there is, as abhorrent as they may be, there's little choice.

mlslawter

November 11, 2009 - 1:28 am EST

Has everyone forgotten common sense? Nobody makes these people pray. Just as nobody makes you eat at McDonald's or smoke cigarettes. When will the stupidity stop? If they don't want to pray, do just that; DON'T! Leave while it is being done, ignore it, put your iPod on or something. Quick making a mountain out of a mole hill! The courts have things more pressing than this.

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