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OPINION

Facts versus fiction on teacher salaries

Wednesday, July 1, 2009
(Updated 3:35 am)

The following is a Counterpoint:

By Ryan Monson

Regarding Charles Davenport’s May 31 column: I can’t recall ever reading an article with so many skewed “facts.” I would like to focus on four of them.

“Fact”: Teachers are whining because they are getting a .5 percent pay cut.

Truth: Teachers are not simply concerned with a 0.5 percent pay cut; they are concerned with the state taking $1 billion away from education next year, which will mean teacher layoffs, increased class sizes, a 4.5 percent pay cut, and many other cuts that will negatively affect teachers and students.

“Fact”: Teachers work 25 percent less that the average person and get compensated more per hour than engineers.

Truth: If you look at the minimum required hours for teachers you could make this claim; however, no effective teacher works these hours. After school I put in an average of two hours each night. I also spend about eight hours each weekend doing schoolwork. My average work week during the school year is more than 60 hours.

Over the course of a year I work 420 hours more than a person who works a normal, 40-hour work week and this doesn’t count time working when I am on “vacation.”

“Fact”: Teaching requires no special skills as shown by the success of home-schooling and private schools which require no teaching “credentials.”

Truth: In home schools and private schools, parents have a vested interest in their child’s education; the demographic of the children is different; and classes are typically small. In public school you often get little or no parental support; many students have no desire to be in school; and classes are much larger. Teaching a class of 30 unmotivated students with parents who are difficult to reach requires an extreme amount of specialized skills.

“Fact”: North Carolina’s teacher compensation ranks 14th in the country.

Truth: This statistic comes from a state political organization that skewed the numbers to get the results it wanted. A better statistic from teacherportal.com ranks North Carolina 23rd. North Carolina was once near the bottom of this pay scale and the students suffered because of it. Being in the top half attracts good teachers. Falling in rank will cause good teachers to leave, and hurt North Carolina’s children.

The writer lives in Randleman.

Comments

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Doug Johnson

July 1, 2009 - 5:53 am EDT

Fact, while the Raleigh Mafia was crying hard times, they decided to buy a jet at a cost of 9 million dollars.
Seems the media missed this. However they were right on top of Richard Burr, removing a few dollars from a ATM.
Then they had a brain fart, how are we going to get our ever two years, tax hikes and fees, to support our pork projects.
So they cancelled the jet for now.
Cost to the taxpayers about 19,500 dollars. Cancellation fees!
Sound like we have a good reason to be broke!

neocon

July 1, 2009 - 6:51 am EDT

Fact: The teachers union, the NEA, has ruined American schools beyond repair and castigating Charles Davenport for pointing out some of the problems will not fix them.

Fact: America's largest labor union, the NEA , advocates leftist positions on issues like abortion, sex 'education', socialized medicine, gorebull warming, and bilingualism while opposing a merit based pay system for teachers. ('wouldn't be "fair" and may even be raaaaacist') They are also one of the biggest contributors to the democrats and other left wing orginazitions.

No wonder other industrial nations are running circles around the US in academics, while spending less per student.

Rufus_T.Firefly

July 1, 2009 - 7:19 am EDT

Fact: I'd love to see you walk a mile in these folks shoes. Then your real education would begin. You'd learn that all of lifes lessons don't come from the AM dial. Life isn't a right/left contest. You need to get out more.

Excellent letter Ryan and a nice piece of writing besides.

neocon

July 1, 2009 - 8:36 am EDT

"I'd love to see you walk a mile in these folks shoes. Then your real education would begin"

That can be said about any profession. Teachers chose the shoes they walk in. I'm not castigating teachers but I do have a problem with unions that are dedicated not to the profession, but to left wing ideology.

Wonder what liberals will whine about when am radio is silenced and there is still a section of the country that disagrees with their policies?

Rufus_T.Firefly

July 1, 2009 - 9:36 am EDT

"Wonder what liberals will whine about when am radio is silenced and there is still a section of the country that disagrees with their policies?"

Wonder what the folks that can't think outside the (radio) box will find to hate when they are on their on. I don't consider myself liberal but some folks can't think outside of the left/right divide.

neocon

July 1, 2009 - 9:39 am EDT

"Wonder what the folks that can't think outside the (radio) box will find to hate when they are on their on."

Probably Bush, Cheney, & Rummy.

J D R

July 1, 2009 - 9:56 am EDT

I would have thought Obamahate

Left Wing Troll

July 1, 2009 - 10:10 am EDT

I knew their was a reason I like the NEA. Thanks for reminding us of all the positive things they stand for. They should recruit you as their spokesperson since you do such a great job of calling out their agenda. I guess it's a shame for you that those who are like-minded on the Left currently hold a majority in both houses, the White House and the American Voter base. But you know what makes our country great? You and others like you have 4 or maybe 8 years to spew your poison and win that majority back. Good luck with that.

Ryan Monson

July 1, 2009 - 10:34 am EDT

Since we are talking specifically about North Carolina I should point out that the NEA is not in North Carolina and North Carolina teachers have no teacher union at all. To go further, claiming that the NEA has ruined American schools would also claim that states without NEA intervention would have the most successful education systems. North Carolina does not have the best education system in the united states.

neocon

July 1, 2009 - 11:17 am EDT

Let me point out that the NCAE (North Carolina Association of Educators) is a union by any standard of the definition and is a self-described 'affiliate' of the ruinous NEA.

Public education in the US is being surpassed by other developed countries that spend a fraction of what we do per pupil....but hey!...we've 'diversity' and our kids know how to install a condom properly, and in case the passion is too great, or the condom fails, the NEA will make sure the kids know how to get an abortion.

Who could axe for anything more?

rbennet

July 1, 2009 - 11:26 am EDT

"I should point out that the NEA is not in North Carolina and North Carolina teachers have no teacher union at all."

http://www.google.com/search?btnG=1&pws=0&q=North+Carolina+Association+o...

North Carolina Association of Educators. First google result, verbatim per www.ncae.org:

"Affiliated with the NEA"

Now, if you'd said "We don't have collective bargaining in North Carolina because this is a Right to Work state" then I'd be a bit more understanding, even though teachers have different retirement plans, pay scales, and have historically gotten raises when others have gotten comp time or nothing at all.

mamaboilermaker

July 1, 2009 - 7:31 am EDT

Ryan, there are engineers who work 60 hours a week, too. They also get 2-4 weeks of vacation, typically. Yes, many teachers work hard, but they don't work harder than other hard-working people. Small business owners, doctors, farmers, mothers of infants........all work as much as you do. They chose their fields, and so did you. Unfortunately for you, your field is controlled by government.

Panacea

July 1, 2009 - 8:27 am EDT

Mama, I gotta go with Ryan on this.

First of all, engineers get paid a HELL of a lot more than teachers do. And the point was, that teacher's pay compared to the hours they actually work is not that great. It's still not that great at the hours we really do work.

I took a pay CUT to teach. If I went back to clinical practice as a nurse, I could make about $15K more a year, and work fewer hours (36 hours per week in 12 hour shifts as opposed to the 50 or so I work now). I don't mind the pay cut--I love what I do. But I resent jackasses like Davenport telling me I'm overpaid and that I have no right to air my grievances.

mamaboilermaker

July 1, 2009 - 8:48 am EDT

My point was simply that teachers are not UNIQUELY overworked. Many jobs are highly demanding, and these demanding jobs have widely varying rates of compensation. These rates of compensation are published in various ways so that people can know what they are getting into.

We are all free to gripe about our jobs, provided we also acknowledge our choices, e.g. I chose engineering as an 18 year old because I had grown up in a financially struggling household and I was tired of being poor. When counselors tried to steer me away from engineering, I clearly told them "I am tired of being poor. I will be an engineer." When engineering turned out to be not completely fun all the time, I accepted that as the price I paid to meet my goals. Later, when I chose to stay home and raise my children, I fully understood that I was making a major financial decision. I accepted my "pay cut" as a result of my choice--and enjoyed intangible rewards instead of money.

I appreciate teachers, but no more or less than I appreciate others who work--the farmer who grows my food, the gentleman who own/runs the gas station, the guys who fix my car, the scientists who formulated and tested my asthma meds.....

Illiterati

July 1, 2009 - 9:10 am EDT

I was a teacher back in the day, before I moved on to a better-paying job in Office World. My office salary might have been based on a 35-hour work week, but I never worked fewer than 60 and was never compensated for those extra hours—and I no longer had days off on every holiday and built-in winter/spring/summer breaks. Heck, many years I couldn't even use all of my vacation days. Now I work for myself and still work about 60 hours per week, but I can at least choose which 60 to work.

The most stress I ever had was NOT as a teacher, but in Office World, where I didn't have the ready-made excuse of being a poor, downtrodden teacher. I had to suck it up and be happy I still had a job. Our budgets were cut plenty of times and we went without new supplies and technology. Big deal. My boss laid people off and made the rest of us do more work for the same salary, but that's how it goes, especially in tough times. Teachers are no more special than any other worker, and until they lose their victim mentality, they won't get this former teacher's sympathy. No job is sacred, not even teaching.

And when I was a kid, class sizes of 35 or so were the norm—with no teacher's aide—and we did just fine. This budget was talking about adding ONE extra kid per class. Doesn't sound too rough to me.

snapandwhistle

July 1, 2009 - 9:29 am EDT

"And when I was a kid, class sizes of 35 or so were the norm"
You're full of crap and just making stuff up. There has never been a "norm" of 35 students per class and unless you can show what you are saying is true, you should just keep your comments to yourself. A quick google search showed that the average class size in 1970 was between 22 and 24. Those articles were discussing the INCREASE in size from the previous 20 years. You never went to school where the average class size was 35 so please admit it and move on.

Illiterati

July 1, 2009 - 11:28 am EDT

Okay, whatever you say, but where I grew up in the 1970s the average size of classes in my school district was around 35. I can't claim that Googled info is always correct or that official propaganda tells the whole story, but I can tell you what my experience was in another part of this country in the 1970s. Maybe I should post a series of class photos so you can count all the kids in each of my classes. Because I can tell you right now, the smallest class was when I was in 1st grade, and I'm counting 32 kids in the photo. In my fifth grade class photo, I count 36, which is the largest. Every class was evenly split along these numbers. It wasn't until the mid-'80s that our district started splitting classes into smaller groups.

When I started teaching and was told that a class size of 15-20 was ideal, I was very surprised. One year I had a class of 16 kids, plus an aide. Sure, I had ample time for each student, but the aide felt like a waste of resources, and I felt that the kids weren't exposed to enough personality types to be appropriately socialized and prepared for the world. We place too much emphasis on small class sizes and not enough on the individual student's responsibility to learn regardless of the number of people around them. When they get to college, they're in lecture halls with hundreds of students, after all. And at work, their boss isn't going to be helping them every step of the way.

The real upshot is that to pay a teacher a premium wage, and pay the teacher's aide, to teach such a small number of people is neither cost-effective nor sustainable in the long run.

oh good grief

July 1, 2009 - 6:22 pm EDT

I went to school here in Guilford County when the class size was always between 30-35 students per class with no "helpers" for the teachers from 1st grade through 8th grade (and I have photographs to prove it).

One year conditions were so crowded that we had one class as a combination class with 3rd graders and 4th graders. It definitely worked out to the advantage of the third graders (half a day of 3rd grade work, half a day of 4th grade work).

Another year seats in the auditorium were removed so that it could house four different classes with 7' flimsy wood/particle board partitions separating the classes.

In 8th grade my classroom was in the basement of the old gym, with the "shop" class on one side and the band room and showers for physical education and athletics on the other.

The school I attended was for students grades 1 through 12, so I went to school with and graduated with fellow students I had known since 1st grade.

Even with over-crowded classrooms (at least by today's standards), several students were inspired to become teachers, at least two of which are still teaching.

The most worthwhile educational experience for children is not dependent on the physical layout of the building/classrooms nor classroom size; it is dependent on dedicated and knowledgable teachers, motivated children, and involved parents.

Dantes

July 1, 2009 - 11:30 am EDT

You were only a part time employee (35 hours) and you still worked 60 hours? I suppose it is unfair for me to question you but your response just seems grossly exaggerated if not completely false. "Office World"???? Only paid for 35 hours when you work 60 hours every week. Your apparent distain for teachers who used to be your colleagues. All of the terrible things that happened to you on your job but at least you were still happy you had a job. Class sizes of 35 or more with no teachers aides (what teacher aides) What did you do in the "Office world" that was so difficult and burdensome?

It is too bad that in the "office world" (I feel stupid even typing that) you didn't have the excuse of being a poor and downtrodden victim. Good thing you replaced it with so many other excuses.

I have worked in the "engineering world". I have put in the hours. I have seen lay offs and additional burdens put on people because of them. None of it speaks to being remotely as tough and harsh as you make it out to be.

One extra kid per class doesn't actually mean one extra kid per class. There are many classes like special ed classes or upper level high school classes that will not increase in size. The one extra kid really means 2-5 extra kids in many classes especially EOC and EOG classes.

Illiterati

July 1, 2009 - 6:35 pm EDT

I wasn't part-time, I was a full-time manager supervising a staff of 80 employees. The company, however, calculated pay based on a 35-hour week (9 to 5, minus an hour lunch), which it has done since the 1930s despite the fact that no full-time staffer ever works so few hours. I was on salary and so of course earned no overtime, yet my paystubs still reflected a fantastical 35-hour week. Just one of this particular media company's many old-school quirks. Not every workplace is the same, as I'm sure you know.

I call it Office World because it's a ridiculous name to describe a ridiculous place.

J D R

July 1, 2009 - 10:11 am EDT

"Ryan, there are engineers who work 60 hours a week, too. They also get 2-4 weeks of vacation, typically"

I am one - and counting travel time to clients, I typically leave the house around 6 am and get back around 7 pm .. 5 days a week ... durning shutdowns it's not uncommon to work 7 day weeks. I do take a long lunch and typically a couple breaks during the day, like right now .. but that's WAY more than a 60 hour week, not counting hours spent at home keeping the books, invoicing, collecting, etc. The good news is I get all the unpaid vacation and sick time I want.

My parents were both school teachers, so I know the routine well and think the LTE writer may be a sorry teacher if he calculates a 60 hour week from his schedule, assumed (with some personal knowledge) as follows: a 7:30 to 3:30 day + 2 hours - minus a hour lunch 5 days = 45 hours + an 8 hour week-end (which frankly I do not believe, but what-ever) = 53 hours per week .. and only some 10 months per year. No sympathy, at least in the time-spent part. No I don't have to deal with future convicts; if he were to ask he'd get sympathy from me.

Ryan Monson

July 1, 2009 - 10:55 am EDT

Let me help you with my math. First the time is 7:30 until 4:00 (since school is done at 3:35, it would be bad for me to leave at 3:30). Tutoring 2 days a week and a meeting every Monday pushes this back to 4:30 for at least 3 days per week. Thanks for giving me 2 hours of work at home because I am sure you saw your parents doing plenty of work at home. This idea of an hour lunch is laughable. Teachers get between 23 and 27 minutes depending upon the school. At my school we have like subject meetings during luch which means that between 2 and 3 days per week lunch is a working lunch. So, to fix the numbers 7:30-4:30 (9 hours) minus 30 minutes for lunch plus 2 hours at home. So far this it 10.5 hours per day. Multiply this by 5 and you get 52.5. Add 8 hours for the weekend and you get 60.5 hours.

My point is not that I work more than others or that teachers are better than engineers. My point is that I have a problem with someone writing that I am overpaid because I only work 37 hours a week.

rbennet

July 1, 2009 - 11:45 am EDT

You have an established time to eat? That's awesome. And do you tutor on those two days for free?

Loved the "math" comment to J.D.R., btw. He's notoriously non-math oriented. Just between you and me, I hear his grasp of Lagrangians wasn't even in the top 5% of his class.

Ryan, consider a different approach to come across more... less... well, some other way. Broad swings with the teacher club might not be the best way to earn sympathy from people who are also having to work more and make do with less.

J D R

July 1, 2009 - 3:00 pm EDT

You personally may not leave 'til 4, but I'll bet you're not the first out the door.

Are you reimbursed for any tutoring you do?

Some nights my parents worked at home into the evening, but certainly not every night. My Dad was an art teacher, so he got off easy, imho. My Mom taught English and Ancient History. Certainly the first few years she spent much time preparing, but after the first few years she had it down so home time was mostly grading papers. For clarity, she didn't start teacing until I was in 7th grade, so I was old enough to have been there to remember.

I conceded an hour for lunch was a too much - but most teachers also had at least one and in some cases two classes of prep time each day. To be fair, some were also assigned lunch duty.

You have not addressed the 180 day schedule (plus a few "teacher days).

mighty1

July 23, 2009 - 3:04 pm EDT

This is a lucky person to have any free time during their school day. I have to be at work by 7:30. I have no break during the day. My lunch time is spent at the same table my students are sitting at. One day a week they leave for music, art, gym and computers. During this time, I meet with the other teachers in my grade to hopefully plan for the following week. Often, we end up doing other school related things and have to plan on our own time after work or on the weekends. Sometimes, we are compensated for tutoring after school, but not always. When students are struggling you just help, without expecting reimbursement. I love my job, but I am tired of people telling me I have it easy. During the summer, I plan for the next year. I take classes that teach me how to better help the students and most of the time I pay for these classes. If you took my pay and compared it to the $5 per hour a babysitter makes, multiply that by the number of students in the class, times the number of hours worked (only the time the students are present) you would come out with about (5 x 30 x6 ) $1800 per day. With the teacher pay cuts in NC, I am living just above the poverty level for a family of 4 and I have a Master's degree and you expect me to give your child the best I possibly can. There is a problem with this.

Lakeshia

July 1, 2009 - 9:29 am EDT

More teacher whine -

Ryan Monson

July 1, 2009 - 10:59 am EDT

I didn't know that pointing out false statements in an article was concidered whining. Could you explain what part of the counterpoint was whiny?

zeus80

July 1, 2009 - 9:43 am EDT

Ryan, excellent letter! And right away I recall a statement attributed to Benjamin Franklin: "An investment in knowledge pays the best interest." And Derek Bok reportedly said: "If you think education is costly, try ignorance."

DaveW

July 1, 2009 - 12:47 pm EDT

Everybody attended school and therefore thinks they know everything a teacher does. Most have no idea. My last paid day was June 16. I have been to my school at least a couple of hours each day since just to keep from getting too far behind and have to kill myself getting ready for next year. Also, I did not join NCAE since as stated earlier it is under the NEA umbrella. Due to this as a former member I was paying National as well as State dues. I am now a member of Professional Educators of North Carolina which I pay a fee one time to only a STATE WIDE organization.
As for Ryan's letter it was right on time. For those of you that think teachers get too many breaks, go back and thank one for your ability to read Davenport's column and for being able to use your computer.By the way it would not be an unreasonable idea to pay teachers for 11 months.

truth

July 1, 2009 - 12:59 pm EDT

Your annual salary can be divvied up to be paid all 12 months. It's totally your choice. Please stop this lie that you are forced to be without pay for 3 months of the year.

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