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The problem we are having with the economy is not Mo's fault.

They have been told repeatedly to keep the regionalization within the confines of the current budget...who knows we may end up saving money once the reorganization takes place.

...however...
instead of cutting technology "teachers" and "teaching supplies"....we need to take a long hard look at other programs that are not working.

We are not suppose to rezone at this time, but we can need to take a hard look at allowing students whose residence is closer to a school than the one they attend...to allow them to transfer due to residence and transportation hardship.

We assume all students have access to computers and this is not the case....we assume are teachers are computer literate...This is not the case....

Let’s be real:

What will the damage be? Simple, planned cuts of 22mm with 2mm from books and supplies would be 20mm personnel

Average cost of a teacher 50,000, yields 400 teachers, but even that is misleading as you do not count cost of teacher raises and cost of retirement and health care increases. Just for discussion sake we will say 5 million in increased costs net of redirected savings. Were we to be HONEST the real impact will be at least 500 positions if they were teaching positions, if they are less expensive positions it could be even more. Who knows the answer? NOT THIS BOARD MEMBER!

Where is the Guilford County Association of Educators? Real questions need real answers, does anyone care? My best uneducated guess, at least 1,000 positions could be affected. Where is my school board member when I need him? Oops, I’m he, alas I now know the problem, I have met the enemy and he is me.

Sorry, last post should be "as many as 1,000 positions" There will have to be transfers and changes to staffing to accomodate that many cuts.

okay here is a list of things..
NO Grasshopper day, or ACC womens day.. how much does that cost.

If a magnet school failes AYP 2 or more years, do away with the magnet portion and start teaching the ABC's and 123's..

No busses for after school tutoring.. the parents can take some responsibilty

2% or more from athletic departments

extend mowing time at schools by one week(this is contracted)

Don't provide bussing to magnet schools.

Raise the AC 2 degrees and lower the heat 2degrees (most schools don't work well anyway)

Quit paying for AP tests ($86 each)

extend the time frame for buying band/sports uniforms.. example, instead of every 4 years, make it every 5

Testing coordinators can definitely go part time in HS- although they do substitute teach when needed for no fee (I believe that is part of their job desciption)..

come on guys, I know we can think of other things.

okay I was going to add more, but I can't recheck what I wrote.. this blog is weird in the fact that I can only read part of this response.

Let’s see 13 million cuts in central office and we suppose Central Office staff cost avg. of $70,000 (way high), that might suggest 185 positions! Wow, talk about bloated pork. One might ask, do new regional office staffs replace central office staff? If so, then cut’s could be far less net admin and still hurt more classrooms and schools. Answers appear to be far away. By the way, last night I saw one of the slickest TG’s ever. Had to do with new regional costs and projected savings from reduced staffing. I wonder if anyone else caught the move? It was as close to an outright lie as you get without crossing the proverbial line.

I am a student at one of the schools that is experiencing the layoffs that Mr. Green has proposed to make up for severe budget cuts. Nobody is more aware than the students here at Ragsdale how bad the economy is and how little money the school system has. All I would like to point out is that I am well aware from experience how ragged all of our teachers are being run. Some of the media assistants that are being laid off are the only reason that these teachers are able to keep up with their classes. All of our classrooms are packed to their capacity.

I understand that budget cuts must be made somewhere, but I question if they are being made in the right areas. Ragsdale does not have any field trips to cut funding from to begin with.

Deborah brought up several good points, but I would like to adress the comment about the AP Exams. I am aware that they are expensive, but as long as the county requires AP students like myself to take the exams, they need to at least provide some financial assistance. I think that a lot more people than the county thinks would be willing to compromise.

As far as the athletics uniforms and departments go, I think that if the money was a bit more evenly distributed (As a track athlete I am tired of helping run the concession stand at our meets to pay for football uniforms) than there would be a bit more money left over.

Ragsdale's building is about 50 years old, and it is beginning to show. The budget cuts need to be made a little bit in each area, not in such huge chunks.

Its times like this that te administration needs to set an example.

There is NO WAY that we should be hiring another set of Superintendents.

Just NO WAY!

The regional offices could work nicely (?) in recycled mobile classrooms.....maybe the soon-to-be-vacant "pods" from Eastern, perhaps?

Tara, if it's any consolation, Ragsdale's up for major renovations (and expansion to the middle school campus) under the recently approved bond issue. Given the slow pace of the design/regulatory approval process, I expect those improvements probably won't be completed during your time there.

I enjoyed reading your candid post; it looks like you have a bright future ahead of you.

I agree with Debra re: AP exams. My daughter goes to college out-of-state. Most of her peers took AP courses, but had to pay for their own exams (some took them, some chose not to), they were surprised to hear that my daughter was 'forced' to take AP course (although she wanted to) and that the district paid for her to take the exam (again, required). The paid for AP exams are a nice perk, yet in these difficult financial times, are just that, a perk, not a necessity. Remember, the College Board offers reduced/free exams for those who can't afford them.

I have another child that receives services for special ed. He is bussed over 12 miles from our home. This is supposed to be the closest school for him to receive services. He spends over an hour on the bus each way -- and this is a special ed student. Ridiculous! We need to do more for our students and teachers and get rid of some of the 'fat' in the administrative level. Afterall, it's supposed to be "CHILDREN FIRST".

I believe the county could pay for AP exams for free reduced lunch students. If my child takes and passes an AP course to receive college credit, that would be a bargain for $89. Even if he didn't pass he would have learned more about how to succeed etc. If parents start paying for tests then they will become more involved with the entire process rather than disengaging at the hs level. Of course there would be a definite drop off in numbers of test taken and as we know that is what GCS wants, lots of tests taken!
Times are tough.. lets get real!

I dont mind paying for AP tests either.

What I find ridiculous however is the statement by Mom23. I am sure if you didnt want you daughter to take the AP class then you could have got her out of it. I just dont believe that comment.

In 2006, 2800 AP tests were taken which is cost of about 250K.

I guess that would pay for two new regional Super's.

I bet that number has doubled by now.. that is 1/2 million dollars! That is 4 regional supervisors or TEN teachers (average 50k)--- I would take the teachers anytime!

Some kids dont even study for the tests. They just like the GPA adnatage.

Dont forget that a lot of kids will qualify for Free AP exams.

I did not say that I did not want my daughter to take the AP classes. She is and was a very highly motivated student and wanted to take the classes. The exams are mandatory if you take the class -- there is no getting out of them if the student is to pass the course. She received college credits for the AP classes/exams she took, for which we are very grateful. I would have paid for her exams even if the county had not paid for them. Again, I am not against AP classes, they are rigorous classes that should be taken by motivated and capable students. I just think that we should reconsider the policy on paying for the exams instead of laying off teachers and aides. I agree, that the county should help those who qualify for free/reduced lunches (however I think the College Board will waive the test fee if the student/school provides this
info to them prior to the test). I suspect the district/schools are using the number of students taking AP courses to "boost" its reputation/rankings; as most people don't realize that the exam passing rate is not figured into the infamous ratings from the magazine that compiles the date and rates the schools.

Mom,
So she was not forced to take the class was she? Which was you had previously had said. If you daughter did not want to take the exam then I dont think she should be allowed to take the class. I dont think you shoud of allowed her to take the class as well@!
By the way, You also dont get college credits just for taking the class. You have to pass it as well!

Very strange posts yours!

I guess I should have been clearer...my daughter told her friends at her university that GCS students were strongly encouraged (i.e., forced) to take AP classes; which in fact, they were -- they were placed in the classes without registering for the classes and told that there was not room in the honors classes for them. Some parents were able to get their kids out of the classes; some either did not try or could not. I do know that those who were "talked into" taking the AP classes could not drop down into the honors subject equivalent classes after a short period of time (3 weeks?) as they were told it was too late.
I realize that if AP exams are not taken then there is no college credit given. My daughter's peers (in the other state(s)) who did not take the AP exams, but did take the AP courses, of course, did not receive college credit. Some people don't realize that even if a student gets college credit for an AP course (such as Calculus or Chemistry or Physics) does not mean he/she won't have to take the college equivalent class - especially if he/she is in a major that requires these courses (such as Engineering, pre-Med, etc.) In such cases, AP helps the student become more familiar with the material and they typically do better in the college class. Most college advisors for technical majors do not recommend students use the AP credits to skip over these classes because there is more material covered and they go into greater depths in the actual college class vs. AP classes {they can use their AP credit and go on to the next level, but typically, do not do well}. In not so technical classes, AP credit is great and helps save money and time for college students...
Perhaps 'forced' was a bad choice of words. I meant that when my daughter told her friends about some of her high school peers being STRONGLY encouraged to take AP and told they HAD to take the exams (even though they knew they would either do poorly or would not use the college credits) her college peers were surprised.
Perhaps my posts are strange; sometimes I do have trouble getting my thoughts in writing. I thank you for reminding me of that fact, but I have had experience with two children taking AP courses (both now in college) and I know from personal experience and from talking to other parents/students in the high school (and a couple of other GCS high schools) that many students who take AP are doing so because they are placed in the class (and not in the honors equivalent) w/o registering for it. Yes, parents can have their students removed, but how many actually do that?
I am glad my children had AP classes available to them and that they were able to obtain college credit by taking the exams, my whole point is that even if GCS did not pay for the exams, I would have been willing and happy to pay for them because my children were thankfully, motivated to do well (to pay $89 for a 3 credit college equivalency is a bargain). I am questioning why taxpayers must pay for exams of students who are not motivated -- who are in the class because they were placed in it, those who just want to try to help their GPA, or those who are clearly not doing well or grasping the material. With an all or none policy like we have now, I believe GCS is wasting taxpayer money with their policy that all AP students take the exam or not pass the course. Also, since the AP exam scores do not come out until July, the exam scores cannot come into play with a course grade since this is after final report cards are published.
I'd also like to ask: How many students actually pass the AP exams with a 3 (not many colleges give credit for 3's), 4, or 5. Also, how many students taking AP courses pass the class with grades of an A or a B, but basically fail the AP exam? I will be bold enough to say that if a student gets an A in the course, he/she should get at least a 4 on the AP exam...
I apologize to Anonymous if I still have not clarified my position.

Mom23
You are repeating what I have been told many times, and sadly it is all too easy to get A in AP classes and not get 4 or better on test. This is fodder for coninuing a great debate.

All:

Thanks for the good input! Debora, you always have good ideas and analysis.

You are right; AP classes/exams are a mess especially if you are a student on a block schedule. You take your first course during the first semester (my oldest did this) but you don't take the exam until May when you haven't finished the AP class you signed up for in the second semester (my oldest again). The reason for the testing is purely for the convenience of the college board that grades the exams. It is easy to see why students who are serious about AP classes aren't getting the most out of them.

Additionally, there is the initial issue of the AP classes themselves. I have spoken with a number of teachers of AP courses and they all seem to have the same story of the unmotivated student who really does not belong in the class. Either it is a complete waste of time for that student, who really doesn't want to be there anyway, or the teacher ends up lowering standards to teach to the unmotivated or otherwise unequiped student, which, of course, undermines the entire purpose of AP classes which, as I understand it, is to push our top students hard.

It seems to me that a student should have a recommendation from a teacher before one is allowed to enroll in an AP course. (All this sort of reminds me of a guy Ii knew in college. He signed up for a mid-level religion course during his first semester of college, with apparently little input from a guidance counselor. At the end of the first day of class the professor asked the class if there were any questions about the lecture. The student raised his hand and asked in earnest "who's this Luther guy?" The professor responded that the student might want to talk with his guidance counselor about enrolling in another class. The point is, we have kids in AP classes who don't belong there for one reason or another. This doesn't mean, however, that they can't later take the class when they have the prerequisites, but we have these AP classes for a reason and we should not undermine that purpose by setting up students for failure by putting them in a class that they can't succeed in.

Now, as to the tests and the cost. One teacher has suggested that we ask parents to pay the cost of the exam, and then refund the cost if the student passes it (gets a 3 or higher). (On the cost of AP exams to GCS, the last number I heard was about $750,000 a year). However, I am not firmly committed to this idea as I understand from a teacher friend of mine, whom I hold in very high regard, as well as others, that even if students don't "pass" the AP exam, they nonetheles benefit from taking the exam. Perhaps it is enough to limit the AP courses to those with recommendations from teachers.

Another alternative is not to require students to take the AP exam in May.

I can't find the link to show you last years results, but about 50% of our kids pass the AP exams... less than 10% at some of our schools, and those schools are passing the students. Rigorours classes? I doubt it at the schools with 10% passing scores. At one point GCS said they would check grades and corresponding test scores so that the county had a certain standard for AP classes. I doubt that is happening.. you can't go back and say.. you had a B... no one passed the AP exams, so now you have a D.. won't happen.. not sure it should.. HOWEVER, and and I did mean to shout.. if you have a teacher that has a history of students at the bottom of the percentage passing, then that teacher needs to be reevaluated.

My son is in his first two AP classes. Both are more rigorous than honors, but one of those classes is killing him with homework and he barely has a C.. will he pass; we will just have to wait and see. Would I pay even if he didn't pass; yes.. well worth it. If he fails will I think the class is useless.. no. If our school has a passing rate less than county average, then perhaps the teacher needs to reaccess his teaching materials. To receive credit for an AP would be great, but as I have been told, taking AP classes shows colleges that you are willing to challenge yourself. Sometimes the credit just goes toward total hours, like an elective. Some colleges only take 4 or 5, some take 3's and up.. it is all subjective and as Paul says we are at the mercy of the College Board.

Also, did GCS not go to AP classes all year under Dr Griers last year here? Some schools do a/b day in block. So they are 'locked' in to two AP's. Take AP English, have to take AP US... that sort of thing... two classes paired up. I don't think that is right. Some students are pushing themselves to do just one, two might be overload.

We have some issues that is for sure.

3/4 of a million dollars... nice when we could afford it, but that time is over for now.

Debora,

To answer one of your questions - NO - not all block schools have year long AP classes. I had also heard it was a Grier mandate, but I guess the word didn't stretch out to High Point.

My daughter took many AP classes at Southwest and benefited greatly. She passed most with 4s, 5s, or 3s. SW is on a block schedule and review for AP exams is offered at the end of the school year. However, many students choose not to go.

This is the dilemma - if a student takes many AP courses, and only has so much time to study (because of other papers to write and senior project, etc.) which one does he or she study for? My daughter figured she would not pass the AP Calculus test with a 4, and didn't need Calculus for Wake Forest so she studied for the tests that she wanted to make 4s on, i.e. one of the AP English. This is what many of the students do. They choose the courses that they would like to have credit for in college put their time into studying for those exams.

Duke and Wake only except 4s and 5s for credit. Also at Wake counts a 5 in AP History; Duke does not. Wake counts 4s and 5s as actual college credit. Duke just give you the "privilege" of taking a more advanced level course in the subject. State and UNC allow 3s. Every school is different.

As for payment, I would have gladly paid for any AP that my daughter chose to study for (a bargain compared to tuition at Wake - thank God for scholarships) but I would not have liked to pay for an exam that I know my child didn't have time to study for and that she had the 1st semester.

If the schools require that the students, take the exam than they should pay. Otherwise, don't require that the student must take the exam. As someone stated, the grades are given out before graduation. AP test results come out in July.

Also I also know of kids who were "forced" (not exactly the correct word) to take AP courses or they had to have a note from their parents why they couldn't take the AP class.

We should look more at who should be in these classes rather than GCS rating in Newsweek.

Also I also know of kids who were "forced" (not exactly the correct word) to take AP courses or they had to have a note from their parents why they couldn't take the AP class.

I just dont believe that!

The interesting thing is that reading the GCS WEB pages one would think things are great.

Heck our high schools are in the top 5% in America.
We continue to get prestigious awards There is always much to celebrate etc. Terry Grier was NC Superintendent of the Year

"Madhof worlds greatest money manager".

It is the same in every profession in America.
Presentation ups substance every time.
Just takes good PR people.

Forget AP.
Algebra II has a 59% percent end of grade passing rate. I bet close to 100% get passed.

What do you all think?

David,

I would say you are absolutely right. At my son's high school, they take Algebra I, Algebra II, and then Geometry (some schools reverse the order or Algebra II and Geometry).

On the first day of my son's Honors Geometry class this year, several kids were called to the guidance office because they had failed the Algebra II EOC. They had also passed the course with decent grades. The counselor asked that they consider taking regular Geometry instead of Honors Geometry based upon how well they had done on the Algebra II EOC. Some did, some did not.

None were asked to retake Algebra II.

David,
of course you are correct, Iam sure that 41% of our students do not fail Alg 2(does the state test alg 2 or just alg 1.. my mind is blank this morning)... and everyone knows that the test is minimum competency.. not mastery of the subject. It is the same for English 9. NE had only 31 students take the EOC English 0 at the first semester... I believe about 25% passed.. This is the language we speak, read and write daily.. how can this be. There were other schools just as bad. I can almost understand having trouble with Algebra.. but ENGLISH! Come on guys; we are not doing the job that we should with the basics.

debora

Yes they test Algebra II. However unlike Algebra I you do not have to pass the EOC state test for the teacher to pass you. They just move you on.

Thats my point.

All the EOC's do is tell us how we are doing. There are no consequences for failing. The pressure seems to be to just pass people on.

The largest division at GTCC is now Developmental
(remedial). They try to teach ( non college credit )
all these kids. English,Arithmetic Algebra etc.
What GCS should have done.

It is a sham.

agreed that there are huge issues and it doesn't start in HS, it starts in elementary school. Can't fail Johnny, or Suzie or Jose because it will hurt their feelings.. they will not be with their friends..no accountability for parents at all. My parents would have done anything to help me if I had trouble. A blue collar family that stressed education as the way to get ahead. Nothing was done at my house, until homework was finished. A working mom and dad, but they were there. Where are the parents now! Kids at home unsupervised, running the street etc. I have friends that teach at title one schools that would never assign homework because it would not get done, so automatically those kids are behind. It takes reinforcement for a young child learning. More than just the teachers can do. Society needs to get a grip on our priorities. The schools can't do it alone (granted, they all need to do better)