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Another attack against Christianity?

This , the idea of stamping biblical references on rifle scopes, is causing problems for some people:

The Marine Corps plans to meet with the manufacturer of rifle optics used by thousands of U.S. troops in combat after the company said it stamps its products with biblical references, prompting criticism that the military and religion were mixing too closely.

Could we really get to the point that soldiers can't even keep Bible verses inside their helmets, as I'm sure some do?

 

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ericaf2010

January 25, 2010 - 2:55 pm EST

Bible prophecy talks about how Christians and Christianity will be looked down upon towards the end. This situation with the military products and Bible verses wouldn't have been an issue 10 or 20 years ago.

As the years go by it will only get worse. You can't criticize Islam, but others can say whatever they want to, no matter how bad, about Christianity. I don't understand it. All religions should be respected, not just one.

Interested

January 25, 2010 - 7:20 pm EST

Apples and oranges. Nobody is criticizing Christianity, merely stating that government-supplied materials cannot be issued with Christian references.

nemo0037

January 26, 2010 - 7:21 am EST

I always feel sad to see this sort of Christian, who thinks the faintest, most obscure criticism of even the most misguided believers constitutes "persecution of Christ." Not only is it ludicrous to call objecting to Bible references on military hardware "looking down on Christianity," but it sure makes it look like you are in favor of making Jesus into a crusading warlord.

Really -- do you think we ought to start painting crosses on our tanks and killer drones, too?

Get A Clue

January 27, 2010 - 6:42 am EST

nemo, we both know that when you build your house out of cards the least little bit of logic is going to make it all come tumbling down. ;-)

Get A Clue

January 25, 2010 - 3:32 pm EST

Now I see why this blogger doesn't partake in the discussion. Her mind is made up.

"Another attack against Christianity." Seriously? Christianity is the dominant world religion, moreso here in the USA. Our holiday calendar, the days our schoolchildren have off, our money and our pledge are all wrapped tight around Christian holy days and phrases.
It was a Christian group who paraded outside the funeral of Vice-President Joe Biden's mother with their "God hates fags" signs. It was Christians who pulled the trigger and who supported those recent few who chose to murder doctors who were practicing legal procedures. It was 2 Christians who blew up the federal building in Oklahoma City.
And now it is Christians who do not see the slightest bit of paradox, let alone irony, in having references to Bible verses in the scope of a weapon designed to "kill infidels." And Ms. McLaughlin wants to reframe this issue into one of soldiers keeping Bible verses inside their helmets.

Ms. McLaughlin, you have just destroyed whatever flimsy credibility you may think you had as a reporter, let alone this paper's "religious issues" reporter. You are so one-sided and closed-minded that it's embarrassing.

Doug Johnson

January 25, 2010 - 3:42 pm EST

Get a clue, if you are going to attack people, put your real name up here!

Get A Clue

January 25, 2010 - 6:45 pm EST

Why?
Is my statement "more true" if my name is attached to it?
If Osama bin Laden's next tape exhorts us to read to our children for 20 minutes a day and get 30 minutes of exercise daily, will we stop doing those things because he's a bad guy?
Truth exists outside of silly requirements such as attaching one's name. You think less of me because I'm anonymous--as per this website's policy, might I add. I don't care. I don't even know if you're "Doug Johnson." I just googled your name and came up with 198,000 sites. So even if you are a "Doug Johnson," which one are you?
Save your breath, it doesn't matter. At least to me. Either I find value in what you say or I don't. And I don't need to know your name to find value in your words. Or stupidity.

nemo0037

January 25, 2010 - 4:40 pm EST

Using Christian symbolism on articles of war has a long, interesting history. Starting with Constantine putting crosses on Roman shields, all the way to "Gott mit uns" on Nazi uniforms. And now the Prince of Peace is endorsing sniper scopes.

This ironic situation should be disturbing to anyone who thought of Jesus as a peacenik who wanted to spread a message of love to all humanity. Why Christians should want to defend the distribution of Christ-marked equipment to all soldiers regardless of their religion, in a war zone where proseltyzing has been expressly forbidden, I have no clue.

And as to Nancy's other note, about Christian soldiers putting bible verses in their helmets -- that seems significantly different, as that is a personal choice that the soldier makes, not a choce made by the manufacturer who isn't getting shot at day by day.

Joe Killian

January 25, 2010 - 4:56 pm EST

Religious sentiments on your person or in your helmet is one thing.

On the deadly weapon you're carrying into battle - quite another.

Beyond the question of simple good taste I think I can say as the son of a Marine who grew up on Marine bases and in a military culture and someone who was raised Catholic, attended Catholic school as a child and grew up in a religious environment...Biblical verse just shouldn't be stamped onto deadly weapons.

There's the cognitive dissonance generated by trying to follow Christ but stamping Biblical verse on the implement with which you intend to kill people in war. But there's also the very real military problem of our Armed Forces trying to explain to people throughout the Muslim world (at least in the current conflict) that this is not a religious war we're waging, not a crusade, not the same thing as the jihad that has been declared against the West by religious fundamentalists and radicals of their culture....but yes, we are going to print our sacred religious verse on our weaponry.

You don't need a high powered scope to see those problems.

kuranes

February 1, 2010 - 7:44 pm EST

Maybe we can lessen the incongruity by suggesting they use the verse where Jesus tells his disciples to buy two swords. Or the one in Revelation where he wades through blood up to his ankles. Or 1 Sam. 22:35, "he teaches my hands to make war" NKJV. There are so many to choose from.
I think radical Islam will make this a religious war no matter what we say or do. That's how they look at the world. The sooner we all realize that, the better. You can't reason with fanatics who think you are the embodiment of evil.

Doug Johnson

January 26, 2010 - 6:34 am EST

I am the one that thinks newspapers are dying because they have no real dogs.
Joe, I still can not find that movie in which Palin does porn!
Can you help me out?

nmclaughlin

January 25, 2010 - 4:31 pm EST

I'm simply asking a question. But now that we're talking, it should be obvious why it's sometimes hard for the religion reporter to talk about religion.

I do think that as much as I question Christians and Christian behavior on this blog, that I should be able to take on this perspective as well.

Get A Clue

January 25, 2010 - 6:36 pm EST

The job of reporter or blogger isn't supposed to be easy, and the job of being a reporter carries many responsibilities. You don't get a free pass just because it's a blog or because you're "just asking a question." I applaud your efforts from time to time to at least put it out there for discussion when you post the stupid remarks Pat Robertson makes about Haiti, for instance.

You chose to reframe this issue in terms that were strictly Christian and--as others have clearly noted--not even in the same ballpark as printing Biblical references on instruments of death. You offer no defense for your point of view nor do you offer to reframe it along issues of any religion's role in warfare. You simply see it as an attack on your chosen religion and then play the victim card.

I'm a Unitarian Universalist. We encourage debate, discussion and even pointed comments about anyone's faith or non-faith. We believe the examined life is worth the effort, as opposed to blindly following someone else's creed. If there is a supreme being, I sincerely doubt he/she is so insecure as to not be able to handle some serious questions about the nature of faith and the pillars supporting any set of beliefs. We don't accept intellectually lazy, childish responses that beg the question or need any number of logical fallacies to distract the believer.

So, can your belief system stand up to simple questions and discussion?

Joe Killian

January 25, 2010 - 7:30 pm EST

I think one of the strengths of the blog is varied perspectives on topics that can get very heated very quickly.

When I posted here more often it was from the perspective of an atheist, and my posts were often framed in a way that challenged the assumptions of believers or asked them to look at stories in a different way. I don't think it's any secret Nancy is a practicing Christian and she's framed this story from that perspective. I don't think that gets in the way of dialogue - we're clearly having a lively one right now - and she hasn't been dishonest about where she's coming from.

As a non-believer I'm not any more offended or put off by the way she asked the question and kick-started the debate than I thought Christians should have been by my once asking, after a man blamed the voice of God for his having decapitated someone, what Christians are supposed to do if they really do think God is talking to them.

Get A Clue

January 25, 2010 - 9:49 pm EST

I agree.
People who blog (the blogger and anyone who posts) and who say they're offended are in the wrong place. Although the net is messy and often less than civil, it's still a marketplace of ideas...and therefore hardly a place for anyone who can't stand to have their ideas challenged.
I know Ms. McLaughlin is a Christian and that she's honest about where she's coming from. My questions regarding her veracity or even her reliability lie in what I perceive to be the blind spots she exposes in the title of this post and her last question, as well as her insistence to simply toss these little bombs out there and then stay far from the discussion. I find that disingenuous, at best.
I'm not the least bit interested in winning converts to my agnostic, skeptical point of view. I'm not keeping score, and there's no prize at the end of this plane of existence for the team with the most members. If I'm wrong, I'll spend eternity in Hell, proving God is just as petty and vain as the Bible makes him out to be. If I'm right, we're all just worm food. Lucky worms.

nmclaughlin

January 26, 2010 - 9:38 am EST

Really, this wasn't a chance for me to do anything more than to see this issue from a Christian perspective -- as I take on other perspectives. That said, I know there are people who see this whole issue like the message you get in a fortune cookie. Yes, it's government issued, but is it really proselytizing? But if you take it to the extreme, then how in the world do we allow entertainers and others to utter the words "God bless America and God bless you" when they visit the troops?

Interested

January 26, 2010 - 5:23 pm EST

NM:
To call this proselytizing is certainly a stretch, but keep in mind, when in a foreign country, they make the rules and interpret them. They decide what is and isn't illegal. Do we really want to put our troops in the middle of that discussion?

As to the entertainers, they are delivering their own message. It is not a government message. In addition, the troops make their own decision as to whether they see the show or not; it certainly isn't required. They have no such choice when it comes to the equipment they will use.

Get A Clue

January 27, 2010 - 6:43 am EST

Any time you begin your argument with, "If they take it to the extreme" then you've already lost. It's called the slippery slope fallacy. You'd do well as both reporter and Christian to study 'logical fallacies' because each time you post a blog response and every time one of your articles is printed you seem unable to avoid them.
I googled the term and here's the first link:
http://www.unc.edu/depts/wcweb/handouts/fallacies.html
And honestly, if you don't see the difference between government-issued Bible verses and entertainers' free speech, you have literally no clue about American history, starting with the First Amendment. Perhaps it's best if you don't comment until you've done your homework.

Interested

January 27, 2010 - 7:57 am EST

I do not often read Ms. McLaughlin's blog, but if this entry is any indication of her overall work, I would have to agree with you. The original post and her second comment most definitely are weakened by including the ride down the slope.

nmclaughlin

January 27, 2010 - 9:14 am EST

So, you're telling me that no one has ever made the argument against even minor stuff that -- "Well, the government let them do it?"

Get A Clue

January 27, 2010 - 10:49 am EST

Please, NM, get a clue.
Arguments +/- goverment policies make their way to the Supreme Court and/or are settled by legislation. Please stay within the bounds of mature discussion, especially when it's your pofessional reputation on the line.

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