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Brian,

We thought you had quit on us. It's nice to see a new strand.

Why do students who can't even do basic math problem and have not intention of pursusing a 4 year degree have to take Algebra anyway? At least why should they have to take Albegra II. The state either needs to eliminate this requirement in order for a student to graduate or we have to zero in on math skills early on and quit social passing our students. Summer school should be mandatory if you can't perform basic math in elementary and middle school.

meant to type "pursuing"

The Algebra 1 students in HS are the ones that have failed Alg 1 in middle school or are the small percentage of students that took 8th grade math (usually the weakest in math)-- Grier was the one that pushed Alg down to 8th grade. Maybe it is time to allow all students to mature enough to be successful in HS and wait for Alg 1. Even those that do well in 8th grade are on a track to be taking very advanced math by the 12 th grade and many, many struggle.

The percentages might be up in some schools, but they are still ridiculously low in most areas. If our students scored 47 last year and 49 this year no one would be celebrating, so you get no high fives from me.

Anon,

There’s a lot of common sense behind your argument. Math lovers can say all day how much geometry and algebra impacts our daily lives but the vast majority of work doesn’t call for it. But the same argument can be made for nearly every course of study past the 6th or 7th grade.

The flip side of the argument is that by requiring students to take these courses we (our society) give them the chance of discovering an unknown passion. Also, by requiring these courses we work towards making the society as a whole better educated.

Then again, we do more than require they take the course, we require they pass it, and there in lies the rub.

It’s a sticky wicket, which is my new favorite expression. Expect to see it a lot.

Brian,

I understand your point about allowing students to discover their passion whether it be music, art, math, English and about having a better educated society. This all sounds well and good. I am a math lover myself.

What actually happens in the real public school world is many of our students, for one reason or another, are not passing Algebra. One reason could be that there is still a great shortage of Math and Science teachers, thus the law of supply and demand to pay these teachers more. A red flag needs to go up when students don't know their multiples and cannot add or subtract without counting on their fingers. Somewhere along the line, we are failing these students. It's a building school and by high school it's a little late to go backwards and teach math facts from flash cards.

There I go again, typing too fast. Meant to say it's a building "skill" not "school".

I have no idea what this means.
"Then again, we do more than require they take the course, we require they pass it, and there in lies the rub"

You would not require one take a course you did not require they pass

Enlighten me.

Also

"but the vast majority of work doesn’t call for it"
Who told you that?
Perhaps only the good paying work.

It may well be that it actually does call for it. We just don't use it. or know that it is required.or helpful

Watch the modern generation make change, try to
split a bill, dispense medication ,understand a discount,

Imagine a blue collar job that requires reading drawings, machining, cutting fabric at an angle,
scale a recipe up or down ( culinary academy ),
just follow a recipe.

Not requiring it just dumbs our country down further..

Why reading and writing. The English language
is very redundant and forgiving. You don't really need all the letters in the right place or correct punctuation.

Voice recognition will solve everything.

Come on.

Why were most great philosophers mathematicians?

From Aristotle, to Bertrand Russel

It trains your mind for logic.

"Math lovers" This is a comment usually used by people that never got it. Worst than that gave up
at long division.

Everyone misses the point. The kids that can't pass algebra 1 usually can't do arithmetic and that is criminal.

Math is "ruthlessly cumulative "and just passing
them on is the kiss of death..

I once heard a principal say "if we can just get them through algebra 1 they can pass the others".

Right,no required state test ( after algebra 1). They just get passed on. Then they enroll in AP math

Of course. it is important to master Power Point.and
EXCEL. Thats real education.

WE just don't get it.

Dave,

To say that they enroll in AP math is ridiculous.

You have many good points but sometimes you, frankly dont know what you are talkng about!

For instance, there is no AP Math.

Back in the dark ages when I was a high school student, we were constantly reminded that we were being introduced to all the different subjects so that we could understand the various ways to look at our world: scientific, mathematical, artistically, linguistically, etc. Our teachers made no pretense that every bit of every subject we took would be directly applicable to any particular job--rather the cumulative effect of having a handle on all the liberal arts would make us "educated" citizens. So, we were expected to just do our best, whether we "liked" the subject or not. The point was we learned to read, write, think and do some math. Of course, such an education leads to a qualitative, not quantitative, assessment, and in today's educational world has no place.

There are AP Maths' AP statistics, AP AB Calculus, AP BC Calculus... If your student is on a college path and takes Alg 1 in 8th grade, they will be 'highly encouraged' to take Geometry, then ALg 2, then pre-calc and the Calculus.. and not just the course, but honors and AP, that is the trend! At Northern we don't even offer college prep classes, all students take honors as the base course.

Anonymous ( no nane )

I know exactly what I am talking about..
Does "an AP math course such as AP calculus"
satisfy you. You know exactly what my point is.

Feel free to clarify my ignorance.

Jack,

You get it. Good for you.

You educate kids you train animals.
The difference between arithmetic, reading, physics, English Literature
and the sacred Power Point ( training )

Jack:

Well said. We need to have well-rounded students versed in all the subjects. I am continually disappointed by the dearth of knowledge our young people have about things like history, etc.

I also agree that we do too much testing, and therefore, end up teaching only what is going to be on the test. Hardly the sort of "education" that folks anticipated in our public schools.

However, the problem is that when we base education based entirely on subjective results, or in your words, qualitative outcomes, we seem to run into problems where kids aren't learning anything. This is why we have the sort of testing regime we have to test outcomes. There seems to me that there ought to be a way that we can, as in Finland, for example, have kids getting a good education without all the testing.

It has been my position from day one that a key to fixing what is wrong in our schools is parental involvement and student responsibility. We hold teachers, principals, school board members and everyone associated with the schools responsible for outcomes, and we should. The other half of the equation, however, is parents and students and no one seems to want to demand they do their part.

It seems to me that having parents do relative simple things would have a big payoff, like ensuring that their children understand that school is their first priority, check to make sure homework is done, and let children know that they are to be on their best behavior at school. This is hardly rocket science.

Children, for their part, must understand that school is their job and while they are there they will put forth their best effort and obey the rules.

I believe firmly that if parents and students start doing a better job on their end we can vastly improve outcomes and perhaps move away from our test, test, test model to a more sane system.

Paul,
Of course you are correct, if parents put an emphasis on education then kids would also. BUT, and here is the but... how do you get parents involved that have never cared. I can tell you that during my volunteer work I have seen parents defend a student and blame teachers when clearly the student was in the wrong, I have been verbally attacked about dress code, scores etc.. things that as a volunteer I do not have any control over. Parents that have high school students that don't know the policy about absences, grading etc. Young girls having babies and dropping out of school because of bad mistakes, with no help at home.. it goes on and on...
How do we can society to have a positive impact on education?

Deborah:
I thought I was the only one who caught this. We push kids to perform and learn math in a way that their brain is not yet capable of picking up. Studies show many adolescent brains are not yet ready to manage many algebra one functions the way we teach them. It is apparently a byproduct of the brain/thought process shift in normal development.

I might be seen as a radical advanced learner advocate in some circles, but it has to be done intelligently and now all kids have the same capacity or desire or a ready to perform at certain stages of development. We have come a long way in Guilford County and Mo’s goals are a pleasantly refreshing desire to look higher for all kids. But we must reevaluate all things constantly and forced Algebra at 9th grade should be reconsidered.

Note that what I wrote above was carefully worded in many ways, evidently there is an Asian methodology of teaching math that truly puts us to shame and I have read nothing reconciling our two vastly different approaches but plan to explore this more this summer. So little is understood about conceptualization, learning and brain development.

my last statement should have read:
how do we change society to have a positive impact on education?

Garth,
many things that I have read show that brain development for things like algebra just aren't where it isn't where it should be at the age of 12 or 13. They might pass the course, but they haven't mastered the concepts. This is of course a generalizatoin and not to mean every child. My son did fine in Alg 1 in 8th, but geometry in 9th grade was a struggle, the concepts just didn't gel in his brain. I think he would have done better in geometry if he had waited a year, but with the tract he is on that wasn't possible.

"brains not ready"....you have got to be kidding me! It is NOT the brains but the behavior that is stifling learning in most situations. 12 yr. olds have the capacity to learn Algebra! If they can program their phones, play video games, and program their Ipods, then they are ready for Alegbra! What our kids do NOT need are parents making MORE excuses for them! I would wager a guess that the majority of kids that fail Alg. didn't give a hoot!!!

"At Northern we don't even offer college prep classes, all students take honors as the base course"

deborah,

What exactly does honors mean?

It is suppose to be a step up in the course material or at least the speed that the material is covered. As I understand, it is a class between CP and AP and it is weighted for GPA's. The book is the same, but the material is covered more in depth with faster speed.

Debora said:
There are AP Maths' AP statistics, AP AB Calculus, AP BC Calculus...

Debora, you are correct but there is no AP called "MATH".

Another thing.

Debora said re honors.

"At Northern we don't even offer college prep classes, all students take honors as the base course"

If that is true it really shows the difference bewteen your schools and the rest of GC.

You really have a different level of children. Its basically a private school for free.

Well, not exactly for free I guess. You have to be able to afford a house up there.

Paul,

I agree with you that there has to be some accountability, some balance between the qualitative aspects of learning and the quantitative results we seek. I guess I was lucky in that I always had very rigorous tests, but my teachers taught me in such a way that I was ready for whatever came my way; they convinced all of us that if we learned the subject, the tests would take care of themselves . . . and they were right!

A also agree that the current assumption--and schools where students aren't doing so well currently suffer through workshop after workshop supposedly for their improvement--which says that teachers are the cause of the problem and the source of all improvement is way off base. For if the assumption were true, then the central administration could swap all the "good" teachers from a school doing well with all the "bad" teachers at a school doing poorly, and the scores at the first would go down and the scores at the second would go up. But I doubt that would happen. Schools that are doing well do have good teaching, but along with the teachers doing their share, the students, parents, and coaches are doing their share . . . and if the administrators are smart they are essentially getting out of the way except where absolutely necessary.

In this country we cannot go into peoples' homes and tell them when or how many children to have, nor can we tell them how to raise the children they do have. No institution, governmental or private, can raise children as effectively as reasonable, pretty good families. But the current talk is that schools can do it all. So sorry, but no.

As far as readiness for certain courses goes, that is a very individual thing which can be easily assessed. But when everyone wants to believe their children are well above average, it's hard to convince parents that it would be in any individual child's best interests to ease into higher level math, science or English courses. The Lake Woebegon effect has a long, deep reach.

Finally, no one has shown that the neurobiologists are totally wrong when they aver that language and math readiness are acquired essentially between birth and age 5. If they are right then many students will always struggle with reading and math; and there is no amount of money or number of programs that can totally reverse that fact. I honestly wish it were not so, but I'm not expert in the field so have to bow to scientific findings in the matter. I only know that we are trying to ignore or paper over some glaring deficiencies--unearned, undeserved, unfair perhaps--in neurological development that students bring off to school.

Debora, According to NC report cards there were 110 Algebra 1 tests taken at Northern High last year at a 40.9% pass rate.
The district passed at a 65% rate.

See:

http://www.ncreportcards.org/src/schDetails.jsp?Page=2&pSchCode=489&pLEA...

Do you mean to tell me that Northern was under the District average?

I can't even believe they offered Algebra I - I would have thought all those kids had taken it in middle school.

I know we were under the county average, - everyone seems to think that Northern has it made in the shade, but trust me we have our own issues as does every high school. We had kids that failed in middle school and then kids that transferred from other systems that don't teach Alg 1 in 8th. I hope our teachers and students do better.

If I am not mistaken that total represents the scores of the 8th graders that took Alg 1 the previous year, can anyone verify that.

In all other courses I believe Northern did fairly well.

Yes, Nothern is well above the district in other subjects and no, the Algebra 1 tests were taken at northern last year.

It doesnt matter where you put kids whose parents dont give a crap.

Question.

EOC tests.

At grade level/passing.

What is the grade level?

50%,75% 80%

Does anyone know.?

Thank you

Question.

EOC tests.

At grade level/passing.

What is the grade level?

50%,75% 80%

Does anyone know.?

Thank you

David,

Sadly, I don't even think it's 50%, but someone can perhaps verify.

Jack, Debora, et al.

I have spend a lot of time on improving parental involvment, trying to figure out how we get them to understand that we can't educate their child without their help and their student's effort. Here is what I have come up with:

1) we need to change the conversation. To this point we have not even included parents and students in our discussions about education reform. It's always about new programs and more money. We need to use every chance we have to let parents know that what they do at home has a huge impact on what happens at school. I liken it to the advertisements that started in the 70s about pollution (or smoking, etc). By introducing to the culture the notion that polluting or smoking are bad, we began to change people's attitude about those things. I think we used to call this moral suasion.

2) we have to build relationships with those moms and dads and build their trust. The old adage is people don't care how much you know until they know how much you care. We need to develop relationships with the parents of our struggling children and build that level of trust that allows us to help them understand that we can't do this without them. Social workers and others in our schools do this all the time. Additionally, Guilford Education Alliance has a program where all new moms get two or three visits from nurses to help them deal with the challenges of motherhood. We can incorporate into this help on preparing children for school from early ages, i.e., reading to them.

I dont' have all the answers and I am willing to work with anyone who has good ideas about addressing these endemic problems. I am dedicated to the bottom line, but I don't care who gets the credit for improvements.

I would be interested in any ideas that any of you have.

Paul